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This has been a source of much amusement for my wife. If I'm very intentional I can force a distinction between 'pin' and 'pen' but it's not at all natural. I

This has been a source of much amusement for my wife. If I'm very intentional I can force a distinction between 'pin' and 'pen' but it's not at all natural. I found this really interesting: The most important thing to notice about the pin-pen merger is that it only happens before nasals. This means that "pit" and "pet" are unaffected by the merger. Only "n" and "m" are really affected, since there are not many words ending in "eng".

canadianfella 5y ago
Where are you from? I’ve never heard someone do this.
kradroy 5y ago
What's puzzling to me is that I'm from South Florida while my parents are from the South, of which S Florida is not a part. They have the pin-pen merger. However, they are distinct for me. I've always wondered how much of a role parents' speech patterns vs. peers' and teachers' play in phonological development.
- quercusa 5y ago
  I had a friend in high school who was from Long Island. I think talking to him pulled my speech patterns less Southern. But if I'm talking to my mom on the phone, it all comes back.
  - 8fGTBjZxBcHq 5y ago
    Code switching. Super common with southerners living outside the south in my experience. We all have various degrees we let the accents out depending on who we're talking to. I can almost completely hide it at work if I want but I let some through bc people like a little. If I talked to my coworkers the way I talk to my siblings though it would be a disaster because of prejudice around our dialect.
    - quercusa 5y ago
      I didn't expect it to be automatic!
- silicon2401 5y ago
  According to Prof. Robert Sapolsky, children are the innovators of language, and children speak like their peers. A famous example is a sign language spontaneously invented by deaf schoolchildren in Child (iirc). The sign language persisted, but after a couple of generations the original generation couldn't even understand the way the new schoolchildren spoke. Children are adaptable and innovative, and both learn and invent new speech. In contrast, adults tend to be rather ossified in their speech and don't change with the times (generally).
  - rjbwork 5y ago
    Speaking of Sapolsky - his lectures from his Human Behavioral Biology course at Stanford are on youtube and they are fantastic.
    - silicon2401 5y ago
      Exactly what I was referencing. Excellent series; I watched/listened to them maybe 4 years ago and couldn't stop. Honestly better than any college course I took myself by far
bloak 5y ago
There are not many words ending in "eng", but there's one starting with "eng", and it happens to be pronounced like "ing": "English".
- Terretta 5y ago
  Are you suggesting for you “enter-“ and “inter-“ are entirely intermingled? From South of Mason Dixie line and anecdata of one, but don’t pronounce pen like pin or English like Ingrid (or -ing). // Of course the beginnings and endings make one think of big endian and little Indian.
  - ksenzee 5y ago
    I do not have the pen/pin merger (raised in the Seattle area), and I do not pronounce "enter" and "inter" the same, but I do pronounce English as if it were Inglish. I think that word is an exception.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  And was once pronounced "Ang" :)
  - pschuegr 5y ago
    Still pretty close in the German pronounciation.
    - KMag 5y ago
      > Still pretty close in the German pronounciation[sic]. Well... I don't find it so surprising that the home of Anglia and the Angles hasn't changed its pronunciation of Angle-land as much. Some mercenaries (if you believe Bede) consisting of Angles from Anglia, Saxons from Lower Saxony, and Jutes from Jutland crossed the channel to fight for various Celtic rulers following the power vacuum left by the Romans leaving Britain. The mercenaries eventually took over part of it, and that part became known as Angle-land. (Of course, this is a gross oversimplification.) The descendants of the mercenaries became known as Anglo-Saxons (not enough Jutes, I guess). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Brit...
Cd00d 5y ago
Yeah, I have a Colorado accent, and pen=pin, and chemistry is pronounced "kimestry". People from the NorthEast always notice and mock.
twic 5y ago
What happens if you put on, say, a Boston accent? Do the words naturally sound different then?

canadianfella 5y ago

Where are you from? I’ve never heard someone do this.

kradroy 5y ago

What's puzzling to me is that I'm from South Florida while my parents are from the South, of which S Florida is not a part. They have the pin-pen merger. However, they are distinct for me. I've always wondered how much of a role parents' speech patterns vs. peers' and teachers' play in phonological development.

quercusa 5y ago
I had a friend in high school who was from Long Island. I think talking to him pulled my speech patterns less Southern. But if I'm talking to my mom on the phone, it all comes back.
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 5y ago
  Code switching. Super common with southerners living outside the south in my experience. We all have various degrees we let the accents out depending on who we're talking to. I can almost completely hide it at work if I want but I let some through bc people like a little. If I talked to my coworkers the way I talk to my siblings though it would be a disaster because of prejudice around our dialect.
  - quercusa 5y ago
    I didn't expect it to be automatic!
silicon2401 5y ago
According to Prof. Robert Sapolsky, children are the innovators of language, and children speak like their peers. A famous example is a sign language spontaneously invented by deaf schoolchildren in Child (iirc). The sign language persisted, but after a couple of generations the original generation couldn't even understand the way the new schoolchildren spoke. Children are adaptable and innovative, and both learn and invent new speech. In contrast, adults tend to be rather ossified in their speech and don't change with the times (generally).
- rjbwork 5y ago
  Speaking of Sapolsky - his lectures from his Human Behavioral Biology course at Stanford are on youtube and they are fantastic.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    Exactly what I was referencing. Excellent series; I watched/listened to them maybe 4 years ago and couldn't stop. Honestly better than any college course I took myself by far

bloak 5y ago

There are not many words ending in "eng", but there's one starting with "eng", and it happens to be pronounced like "ing": "English".

Terretta 5y ago
Are you suggesting for you “enter-“ and “inter-“ are entirely intermingled? From South of Mason Dixie line and anecdata of one, but don’t pronounce pen like pin or English like Ingrid (or -ing). // Of course the beginnings and endings make one think of big endian and little Indian.
- ksenzee 5y ago
  I do not have the pen/pin merger (raised in the Seattle area), and I do not pronounce "enter" and "inter" the same, but I do pronounce English as if it were Inglish. I think that word is an exception.
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
And was once pronounced "Ang" :)
- pschuegr 5y ago
  Still pretty close in the German pronounciation.
  - KMag 5y ago
    > Still pretty close in the German pronounciation[sic]. Well... I don't find it so surprising that the home of Anglia and the Angles hasn't changed its pronunciation of Angle-land as much. Some mercenaries (if you believe Bede) consisting of Angles from Anglia, Saxons from Lower Saxony, and Jutes from Jutland crossed the channel to fight for various Celtic rulers following the power vacuum left by the Romans leaving Britain. The mercenaries eventually took over part of it, and that part became known as Angle-land. (Of course, this is a gross oversimplification.) The descendants of the mercenaries became known as Anglo-Saxons (not enough Jutes, I guess). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Brit...

Cd00d 5y ago

Yeah, I have a Colorado accent, and pen=pin, and chemistry is pronounced "kimestry". People from the NorthEast always notice and mock.

twic 5y ago

What happens if you put on, say, a Boston accent? Do the words naturally sound different then?