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Meanwhile they started accepting Dogecoin at SpaceX just couple of days ago. Dogecoin has exactly the same energy spending incentives as Bitcoin. The whole set

Meanwhile they started accepting Dogecoin at SpaceX just couple of days ago. Dogecoin has exactly the same energy spending incentives as Bitcoin. The whole set of actions doesn't sound very logical.

morelisp 5y ago
It's absolutely logical when your primary criterion is M' > M.
tromp 5y ago
> Dogecoin has exactly the same energy spending incentives as Bitcoin. While the incentives are the same, Dogecoin has roughly 7.4x lower energy requirements than Bitcoin currently, so accepting Dogecoin instead of Bitcoin is a tad less offensive.
- La1n 5y ago
  With a market cap that is 20 times lower, higher market cap means higher prices, means more miners and thus more energy requirement
  - tromp 5y ago
    Not quite. Energy requirements correspond to daily dollar emission (column PoW produced 24h in [1]). Early in their emission, coins can have high daily emission and low marketcap. And dogecoin is at less than 1/3 of its 500B soft total supply [2]. [1] https://www.f2pool.com/coins https://www.f2pool.com/coins [2] https://john-tromp.medium.com/a-case-for-using-soft-total-supply-1169a188d153 https://john-tromp.medium.com/a-case-for-using-soft-total-su...
- swinglock 5y ago
  Only because it's not used. This is like arguing we should switch from using cars currently on the road because they use energy, to cars currently standing in a garage, because we measured and clearly the parked cars use less energy than the cars on the road. It's not even hyperbole, it's precisely equivalent and just as boneheaded as it sounds.
  - arss 5y ago
    This is not true. Dogecoin is way lower KW per hash than bitcoin. Dogecoin is .12 and bitcoin is 707 https://www.trgdatacenters.com/most-environment-friendly-cryptocurrencies/ https://www.trgdatacenters.com/most-environment-friendly-cry...
    - varajelle 5y ago
      ... because it is not used. The difficulty is adjusted depending on the amount of minors, which would increase if the price increase.
    - swinglock 5y ago
      KW per hash, are you pulling my leg? What does washer fluid consumption per turn signal rate has to do with anything?
- square_usual 5y ago
  Musk said they were looking for crypto with an energy requirement of <1% of bitcoin's, so that would rule Doge out too.
  - tromp 5y ago
    He should look at the one that uses 0.15% of bitcoin's while having a much more even distribution than Dogecoin (which had 20x block reward in its first year).
johnchristopher 5y ago
> Meanwhile they started accepting Dogecoin at SpaceX What does that mean ? That SpaceX sells LEO trips in dogecoin ? Or that the coffee machine takes dogecoin ?
- hkdobrev 5y ago
  The actual flight is purchased with the Dogecoin currency. https://www.space.com/spacex-dogecoin-moon-mission https://www.space.com/spacex-dogecoin-moon-mission
mFixman 5y ago
> Dogecoin has exactly the same energy spending incentives as Bitcoin. Does it? I thought that Bitcoin was particularly bad because block sizes were small, so there's a big incentive to mine and get mining fees. Dogecoin is still wasteful, but it's an order of magnitude less than Bitcoin.
- pinkybanana 5y ago
  > I thought that Bitcoin was particularly bad because block sizes were small, so there's a big incentive to mine and get mining fees. No. Doesn't make sense. Miners get rewarded for spending energy in all PoW coins. I don't think details such as block size matters. Dogecoin BTW as well has the 1MB block limit, their block time is just smaller (1 minute). However dogecoin has quite small amount of transactions compared to BTC, it is nowhere near its capacity limits yet.
  - arss 5y ago
    Dogecoin is incredibly more efficient for kilowatt per hash than bitcoin. Of the very popular older coins only XRP is more efficient. https://www.trgdatacenters.com/most-environment-friendly-cryptocurrencies/ https://www.trgdatacenters.com/most-environment-friendly-cry...
    - therein 5y ago
      KW per hashrate doesn't make much sense. At that point you're just comparing the efficiency for the available hardware for hashing function, ASICs that are designed to handle up to calculating SHA256 of up to 1MB of data versus scrypt ASICs. Since that's the case, your statement of "of the very popular older coins only XRP is more efficient" falls apart as at the very least Litecoin would need to be at the exact same spot. And if you are talking about per mined blocks, then you are putting the network difficulty into the picture and arguing a lower network difficulty (hence lower network hashrate) as a selling point isn't going to get you anywhere.

Meanwhile they started accepting Dogecoin at SpaceX just couple of days ago. Dogecoin has exactly the same energy spending incentives as Bitcoin. The whole set of actions doesn't sound very logical.

morelisp 5y ago

It's absolutely logical when your primary criterion is M' > M.

tromp 5y ago

> Dogecoin has exactly the same energy spending incentives as Bitcoin. While the incentives are the same, Dogecoin has roughly 7.4x lower energy requirements than Bitcoin currently, so accepting Dogecoin instead of Bitcoin is a tad less offensive.

La1n 5y ago
With a market cap that is 20 times lower, higher market cap means higher prices, means more miners and thus more energy requirement
- tromp 5y ago
  Not quite. Energy requirements correspond to daily dollar emission (column PoW produced 24h in [1]). Early in their emission, coins can have high daily emission and low marketcap. And dogecoin is at less than 1/3 of its 500B soft total supply [2]. [1] https://www.f2pool.com/coins https://www.f2pool.com/coins [2] https://john-tromp.medium.com/a-case-for-using-soft-total-supply-1169a188d153 https://john-tromp.medium.com/a-case-for-using-soft-total-su...
swinglock 5y ago
Only because it's not used. This is like arguing we should switch from using cars currently on the road because they use energy, to cars currently standing in a garage, because we measured and clearly the parked cars use less energy than the cars on the road. It's not even hyperbole, it's precisely equivalent and just as boneheaded as it sounds.
- arss 5y ago
  This is not true. Dogecoin is way lower KW per hash than bitcoin. Dogecoin is .12 and bitcoin is 707 https://www.trgdatacenters.com/most-environment-friendly-cryptocurrencies/ https://www.trgdatacenters.com/most-environment-friendly-cry...
  - varajelle 5y ago
    ... because it is not used. The difficulty is adjusted depending on the amount of minors, which would increase if the price increase.
  - swinglock 5y ago
    KW per hash, are you pulling my leg? What does washer fluid consumption per turn signal rate has to do with anything?
square_usual 5y ago
Musk said they were looking for crypto with an energy requirement of <1% of bitcoin's, so that would rule Doge out too.
- tromp 5y ago
  He should look at the one that uses 0.15% of bitcoin's while having a much more even distribution than Dogecoin (which had 20x block reward in its first year).

johnchristopher 5y ago

> Meanwhile they started accepting Dogecoin at SpaceX What does that mean ? That SpaceX sells LEO trips in dogecoin ? Or that the coffee machine takes dogecoin ?

hkdobrev 5y ago
The actual flight is purchased with the Dogecoin currency. https://www.space.com/spacex-dogecoin-moon-mission https://www.space.com/spacex-dogecoin-moon-mission

mFixman 5y ago

> Dogecoin has exactly the same energy spending incentives as Bitcoin. Does it? I thought that Bitcoin was particularly bad because block sizes were small, so there's a big incentive to mine and get mining fees. Dogecoin is still wasteful, but it's an order of magnitude less than Bitcoin.

pinkybanana 5y ago
> I thought that Bitcoin was particularly bad because block sizes were small, so there's a big incentive to mine and get mining fees. No. Doesn't make sense. Miners get rewarded for spending energy in all PoW coins. I don't think details such as block size matters. Dogecoin BTW as well has the 1MB block limit, their block time is just smaller (1 minute). However dogecoin has quite small amount of transactions compared to BTC, it is nowhere near its capacity limits yet.
- arss 5y ago
  Dogecoin is incredibly more efficient for kilowatt per hash than bitcoin. Of the very popular older coins only XRP is more efficient. https://www.trgdatacenters.com/most-environment-friendly-cryptocurrencies/ https://www.trgdatacenters.com/most-environment-friendly-cry...
  - therein 5y ago
    KW per hashrate doesn't make much sense. At that point you're just comparing the efficiency for the available hardware for hashing function, ASICs that are designed to handle up to calculating SHA256 of up to 1MB of data versus scrypt ASICs. Since that's the case, your statement of "of the very popular older coins only XRP is more efficient" falls apart as at the very least Litecoin would need to be at the exact same spot. And if you are talking about per mined blocks, then you are putting the network difficulty into the picture and arguing a lower network difficulty (hence lower network hashrate) as a selling point isn't going to get you anywhere.