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Quick summary: the biggest electricity provider in the country (ENEL) made an app (Juicepass) to find and manage their charging stations across the country. The

Quick summary: the biggest electricity provider in the country (ENEL) made an app (Juicepass) to find and manage their charging stations across the country. The Android Auto functionality of the app has been rejected by Google for non disclosed "security concerns while driving". The antitrust ruled out it was because Google wanted to sabotage competitor apps to the charging stations finder built-in in the Google Maps app. On top of the fine Google will need to provide the SDK to integrate their app with Android Auto.

dan-robertson 5y ago
> The antitrust ruled out it was because Google wanted to sabotage competitor apps to the charging stations finder built-in in the Google Maps app Should this say “…ruled it was because…”? I can’t figure out the reason for the fine otherwise.
- simonh 5y ago
  Just to explain for non-native anglophones, I think what they meant was "gave out a rule", but in idiomatic English "ruled something out" means it has been eliminated as a possibility.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    Yep, and to explain further; The first instance of "ruling" in a judicial sense probably derives from rule (i.e dictat/maxim). To "rule out" is to use a ruler to cross a line through something in a written list of items, thereby eliminating it from consideration.
    - wccrawford 5y ago
      But also in colloquial English, "rule out" means "eliminate by logic". Like, "use the rules to take it out of possibility".
      - dan-robertson 5y ago
        I don’t think this is an accurate definition or etymology. The phrase can mean “formally remove” or just “eliminate”. I think it always alludes to using a stick of wood to draw a line rather than a regulation or law.
        wccrawford 5y ago
        My etymology might be completely wrong. No argument there. But as for the meaning, that's what it's always meant when I've heard it said. So it definitely means that, at least colloquially.
        zeroimpl 5y ago
        Definitely agree here. I’ve never associated a physical ruler with the verb rule.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
bsdubernerd 5y ago
And a quick reminder to everybody else that walled gardens don't actually help the consumer. They only arbitrarily restrict choice, they don't actually improve security (if any, that's provided by the sandboxing, not by the store "review"). If this company (ENEL) wasn't a huge state-wide electric company (inheriting their power and ties from the previous state-owned monopoly) how many chances do you think they had to fight? As a small fish you're just dumped.
- oblio 5y ago
  Walled gardens are just security theater. The App Store revenue was $72bn in 2020, yet the review time for an app is a few hours. App reviewers barely have any qualifications, they're just "call center operators" running off a script.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    It is a lot more than "theatre". The first line of defence is the sandboxing built into the OS. The second line is a lot of automated analysis of the binaries that are uploaded. The human review is the third line, but that is much less about security.
    - dalbasal 5y ago
      ..and the last line of defense is removing a bad app to prevent further harm. Drivers licenses aren't only about competence. Sure, there's a test. But, there's also the ability to revoke a license.
      - Siira 5y ago
        So please explain why the licenses need to cost a fortune? Simple Bayesian thinking will tell you what the real motive is, and what is being used as the coverup motive.
        dalbasal 5y ago
genericacct 5y ago
The fact that ENEL is owned by the employers of the ruling judges is just a coincidence.
- mikro2nd 5y ago
  Are you suggesting that the Italian judiciary is incapable of acting independently and impartially?
  - saddlerustle 5y ago
    The majority of italians rate the independence of courts to be poor, which is among the lowest ratings in the EU [1] [1] https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/justice_scoreboard_2017_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/justice_scoreboar...
    - riffraff 5y ago
      this is because they think the courts are politicized, not because the judiciary takes input from the government. In fact there has been a constant conflict between judges and government for the last 30 years.
      - anoncake 5y ago
        Doesn't that mean the judiciary is independent, but biased?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        riffraff 5y ago
        It's hard to say, certainly some investigations have appeared political, but in US terms there is distrust against "public attorneys" rather than against judges (and Italy permits one to change career between the two). But what I meant to say is that one political side have complained about judges for 30 years, which has impacted the public opinion. See the effects Trump has had on institutional trust in the US, and make it last 5 mandates.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
PaulHoule 5y ago
What are the rules for Android Auto? Distracted driving is a big problem, but my experience is that people have superstitious ideas about what is safe and what is dangerous in areas like that. You can certainly do experiments, and the conclusion you seem to reach is that you're in a lot safer with a car that has physical buttons for the audio, heat, etc. (Had "luxury" carmakers been on the ball five years or so they would have kicked the infotainment systems to the curb and would be giving customers a premium experience today -- how many $1000 does Android Auto knock off the resale value of your car?)
- darksaints 5y ago
  Totally. I'm maybe a week or two away from buying a Model 3, but the thing I keep coming back to is the whole "everything is controlled by a touchscreen" crap. Even when physical controls are not designed perfectly, you can still get used to them to the point where they are muscle memory and no longer a distraction. No matter how awesome they are, touch screens will never not be a distraction.
ArkanExplorer 5y ago
A true penalty would have been to limit Google Play to 5% commissions for any purchasers or developers in Italy.
HALtheWise 5y ago
The really sad thing about this case is that there is _no way_ that Google made anything like $100M from the charging station finder in Google Maps in Italy. That functionality reeks to me of something made by a small group of Googlers because they legitimately care about promoting electric cars and making life easier for their owners, not because Google particularly cares if they dominate the electric vehicle charging station finding market. Now that the functionality has cost them $100M and however much effort it takes to make a regulator-approved SDK for Android Auto, I'm worried that the lawyers at the company will just shut down that feature and others like it, which would be a net loss for users.
- klmadfejno 5y ago
  That's only sad if all they did was make a product and not share it with others. They also rejected a competitor access to their monopoly on the service. It's supposed to sting. Otherwise they would just do this shit all the time.
- seaman1921 5y ago
  exactly, this is not the reinforcement you want to give the big tech - putting fines for the actually useful stuff using crappy antitrust arguments? Come on. This will just encourage them to kill all the genuinely useful stuff they do because honestly their legal teams can't spend hours vetting all of these small features and apps which provide immense value to certain subsets of users. And for what ? The shitty JuicePass app with under 2.5 rating.
  - seaman1921 5y ago
    edit, s/reinforcement/punishment
- ysavir 5y ago
  So it's okay for companies like google to abuse their market position so long as we think they're doing it for the greater good?
jeffbee 5y ago
It can't be that simple because there is working ChargePoint integration with Android Auto. If they were just blocking 3rd party apps that wouldn't exist.
gentleman11 5y ago
Not sure why nobody else is asking this, but what is the evidence? Did an investigation reveal that this actually was the reason for the App Store rejection?
- toyg 5y ago
  This was an antitrust ruling, so chances are that the process was something like: - app developer (here, the giant state-backed energy company ENEL) complains to antitrust authority about getting denied access to store - authority asks Google to justify itself - Google makes a very weak argument, refuses to disclose the internal decision-making process that resulted in blocking access - authority goes “oh really?”, proceeds to slap Google with a fine Now Google can decide whether they want to take this to court (which, being Italy, will probably take 5 to 10 years); pay the fine and allow ENEL in; or just ignore the ruling and dare the state to slap them harder (which again, would probably mean a good 5+ years will pass before sanctions are actually enacted, but might result in higher fines).
Pxtl 5y ago
"ruled" or "ruled out"? Because those have opposing meanings.
snambi 5y ago
companies like google needed to be spilt up and made as smaller entities. These companies are a threat to humanity.
908B64B197 5y ago
I'm on Google's side here. I want Android Auto to know what type of plug I have and Google Maps to just show me all compatible chargers. And possibly handle payments. Like what Tesla has been doing for years [0]. Now there's some government developed app to duplicate that functionality but only for their special snowflake network and only in their jurisdiction. Just crossed the border from France to Italy? Install this app (is it in international app stores as well? Do I have to switch my phone to that country?). Ohh now it has it's own map but no navigation so I'm switching back and forth between that and Google Maps. [0] https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1145 https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1145
- Chymor 5y ago
  That’s not really what it’s about. It’s about if they can do that and throw out competing apps doing the same thing. Or if you will have the ability to choose an other app if you don’t like google. Of cause integration and ease of use become harder if there’s multiple networks and apps, but that’s separate from the question if they should be allowed by google.

dan-robertson 5y ago

> The antitrust ruled out it was because Google wanted to sabotage competitor apps to the charging stations finder built-in in the Google Maps app Should this say “…ruled it was because…”? I can’t figure out the reason for the fine otherwise.

simonh 5y ago
Just to explain for non-native anglophones, I think what they meant was "gave out a rule", but in idiomatic English "ruled something out" means it has been eliminated as a possibility.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  Yep, and to explain further; The first instance of "ruling" in a judicial sense probably derives from rule (i.e dictat/maxim). To "rule out" is to use a ruler to cross a line through something in a written list of items, thereby eliminating it from consideration.
  - wccrawford 5y ago
    But also in colloquial English, "rule out" means "eliminate by logic". Like, "use the rules to take it out of possibility".
    - dan-robertson 5y ago
      I don’t think this is an accurate definition or etymology. The phrase can mean “formally remove” or just “eliminate”. I think it always alludes to using a stick of wood to draw a line rather than a regulation or law.
      - wccrawford 5y ago
        My etymology might be completely wrong. No argument there. But as for the meaning, that's what it's always meant when I've heard it said. So it definitely means that, at least colloquially.
        zeroimpl 5y ago
        Definitely agree here. I’ve never associated a physical ruler with the verb rule.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

bsdubernerd 5y ago

And a quick reminder to everybody else that walled gardens don't actually help the consumer. They only arbitrarily restrict choice, they don't actually improve security (if any, that's provided by the sandboxing, not by the store "review"). If this company (ENEL) wasn't a huge state-wide electric company (inheriting their power and ties from the previous state-owned monopoly) how many chances do you think they had to fight? As a small fish you're just dumped.

oblio 5y ago
Walled gardens are just security theater. The App Store revenue was $72bn in 2020, yet the review time for an app is a few hours. App reviewers barely have any qualifications, they're just "call center operators" running off a script.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  It is a lot more than "theatre". The first line of defence is the sandboxing built into the OS. The second line is a lot of automated analysis of the binaries that are uploaded. The human review is the third line, but that is much less about security.
  - dalbasal 5y ago
    ..and the last line of defense is removing a bad app to prevent further harm. Drivers licenses aren't only about competence. Sure, there's a test. But, there's also the ability to revoke a license.
    - Siira 5y ago
      So please explain why the licenses need to cost a fortune? Simple Bayesian thinking will tell you what the real motive is, and what is being used as the coverup motive.
      - dalbasal 5y ago

genericacct 5y ago

The fact that ENEL is owned by the employers of the ruling judges is just a coincidence.

mikro2nd 5y ago
Are you suggesting that the Italian judiciary is incapable of acting independently and impartially?
- saddlerustle 5y ago
  The majority of italians rate the independence of courts to be poor, which is among the lowest ratings in the EU [1] [1] https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/justice_scoreboard_2017_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/justice_scoreboar...
  - riffraff 5y ago
    this is because they think the courts are politicized, not because the judiciary takes input from the government. In fact there has been a constant conflict between judges and government for the last 30 years.
    - anoncake 5y ago
      Doesn't that mean the judiciary is independent, but biased?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - riffraff 5y ago
        It's hard to say, certainly some investigations have appeared political, but in US terms there is distrust against "public attorneys" rather than against judges (and Italy permits one to change career between the two). But what I meant to say is that one political side have complained about judges for 30 years, which has impacted the public opinion. See the effects Trump has had on institutional trust in the US, and make it last 5 mandates.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

PaulHoule 5y ago

What are the rules for Android Auto? Distracted driving is a big problem, but my experience is that people have superstitious ideas about what is safe and what is dangerous in areas like that. You can certainly do experiments, and the conclusion you seem to reach is that you're in a lot safer with a car that has physical buttons for the audio, heat, etc. (Had "luxury" carmakers been on the ball five years or so they would have kicked the infotainment systems to the curb and would be giving customers a premium experience today -- how many $1000 does Android Auto knock off the resale value of your car?)

darksaints 5y ago
Totally. I'm maybe a week or two away from buying a Model 3, but the thing I keep coming back to is the whole "everything is controlled by a touchscreen" crap. Even when physical controls are not designed perfectly, you can still get used to them to the point where they are muscle memory and no longer a distraction. No matter how awesome they are, touch screens will never not be a distraction.

ArkanExplorer 5y ago

A true penalty would have been to limit Google Play to 5% commissions for any purchasers or developers in Italy.

HALtheWise 5y ago

The really sad thing about this case is that there is _no way_ that Google made anything like $100M from the charging station finder in Google Maps in Italy. That functionality reeks to me of something made by a small group of Googlers because they legitimately care about promoting electric cars and making life easier for their owners, not because Google particularly cares if they dominate the electric vehicle charging station finding market. Now that the functionality has cost them $100M and however much effort it takes to make a regulator-approved SDK for Android Auto, I'm worried that the lawyers at the company will just shut down that feature and others like it, which would be a net loss for users.

klmadfejno 5y ago
That's only sad if all they did was make a product and not share it with others. They also rejected a competitor access to their monopoly on the service. It's supposed to sting. Otherwise they would just do this shit all the time.
seaman1921 5y ago
exactly, this is not the reinforcement you want to give the big tech - putting fines for the actually useful stuff using crappy antitrust arguments? Come on. This will just encourage them to kill all the genuinely useful stuff they do because honestly their legal teams can't spend hours vetting all of these small features and apps which provide immense value to certain subsets of users. And for what ? The shitty JuicePass app with under 2.5 rating.
- seaman1921 5y ago
  edit, s/reinforcement/punishment
ysavir 5y ago
So it's okay for companies like google to abuse their market position so long as we think they're doing it for the greater good?

jeffbee 5y ago

It can't be that simple because there is working ChargePoint integration with Android Auto. If they were just blocking 3rd party apps that wouldn't exist.

gentleman11 5y ago

Not sure why nobody else is asking this, but what is the evidence? Did an investigation reveal that this actually was the reason for the App Store rejection?

toyg 5y ago
This was an antitrust ruling, so chances are that the process was something like: - app developer (here, the giant state-backed energy company ENEL) complains to antitrust authority about getting denied access to store - authority asks Google to justify itself - Google makes a very weak argument, refuses to disclose the internal decision-making process that resulted in blocking access - authority goes “oh really?”, proceeds to slap Google with a fine Now Google can decide whether they want to take this to court (which, being Italy, will probably take 5 to 10 years); pay the fine and allow ENEL in; or just ignore the ruling and dare the state to slap them harder (which again, would probably mean a good 5+ years will pass before sanctions are actually enacted, but might result in higher fines).

Pxtl 5y ago

"ruled" or "ruled out"? Because those have opposing meanings.

snambi 5y ago

companies like google needed to be spilt up and made as smaller entities. These companies are a threat to humanity.

908B64B197 5y ago

I'm on Google's side here. I want Android Auto to know what type of plug I have and Google Maps to just show me all compatible chargers. And possibly handle payments. Like what Tesla has been doing for years [0]. Now there's some government developed app to duplicate that functionality but only for their special snowflake network and only in their jurisdiction. Just crossed the border from France to Italy? Install this app (is it in international app stores as well? Do I have to switch my phone to that country?). Ohh now it has it's own map but no navigation so I'm switching back and forth between that and Google Maps. [0] https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1145 https://youtu.be/hA_B7qPyUDA?t=1145

Chymor 5y ago
That’s not really what it’s about. It’s about if they can do that and throw out competing apps doing the same thing. Or if you will have the ability to choose an other app if you don’t like google. Of cause integration and ease of use become harder if there’s multiple networks and apps, but that’s separate from the question if they should be allowed by google.