4 ms·

It’s been interesting to see how the Israel/Palestine conflict falls outside the normal lines of left/right divide. You’d expect most of the lefties to side wit

It’s been interesting to see how the Israel/Palestine conflict falls outside the normal lines of left/right divide. You’d expect most of the lefties to side with the Palestinians since they’re the most analogous to the protected groups these people are usually so concerned with. But it turns out if you’re a leftie who happens to also be Jewish, you’re far more likely to support government violence than your political views might suggest.

temp8964 5y ago
Is Hamas rocket attack considered as "government violence"?
- vinay427 5y ago
  Sure, if you subscribe to a broader definition of "government violence" that also probably includes aboriginal North Americans in militias haphazardly shooting arrows at European settlers that had firearms and had occupied their land by force.
yamrzou 5y ago
Not necessarily. See for example Jewish Voice For Peace: https://twitter.com/jvplive https://twitter.com/jvplive https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/ https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
fortran77 5y ago
It’s interesting that the Left hates the indigenous people of Judaea and Samaria. They usually profess to like “indigenous peoples.”
- ptato 5y ago
  The left hates what? The left profess to like indigenous people from where? It's interesting how people make weird sweeping statements like this that mean nothing and have no relation to any definition of left. I guess if you say that someone believes something nonsensical, it makes them look like the unreasonable one?
  - ultrastable 5y ago
    this is the latest hasbara gimmick, portraying Israelis as "indigenous" in a feeble attempt to mislead people into supporting their colonialism
ultrastable 5y ago
that's both untrue & grossly antisemitic
kackerd 5y ago
One of the major groups supporting the Palestinian people and their right to self-determination is 'Jewish lefties'. Alongside Palestinian voices, those who feel solidarity because of Arab or Muslim identities, and those who work in general against colonialism, Jewish lefties who make a specific point of rejecting the 'community mainstream' of generally supporting Israel are and have always been involved in opposing the excesses of Zionism. I know some of them and they are very brave people. They are constantly accused of being 'self-hating' and even Nazi sympathizers by more right-wing Jews. It's a pretty big deal if you are Jewish and get accused of being a 'Kapo' by other Jews. And they are often treated with suspicion or worse by other pro-Palestinian activists. Many people expect them to constantly condemn, apologize for or disassociate themselves from Israel's actions, simply because they are Jewish. They also have to contend with the fact that a proportion of their 'allies' are either actual antisemites using Palestine as a pretext, or well-meaning idiots who get caught up in conspiracy theories and racist tropes without understanding how they are connected to antisemitism. I would say that being leftwing and opposed to the status quo in Israel is one of the major reasons that Jewish people become disillusioned with their community and end up completely rejecting the religious identity. And having to deal with accusations like yours is one of the main things stopping Jewish people who oppose the Israeli occupation from being more involved in activism.
- ultrastable 5y ago
  the "caught up in racist tropes" thing reminds me of an incident that occurred at my university. there was a speech by someone involved w/ the Israeli govt & during the Q&A a Palestine activist asked them a question about organ harvesting by Israeli doctors. immediately she was accused of perpetuating the blood libel & a lot of Jewish students got understandably pissed off. but it turned out that her question was in reference to a specific incident where Israeli doctors actually did harvest organs w/o permission from relatives from dead Palestinians as well as Israelis: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathol.... I spoke to her afterwards & she hadn't even heard of the blood libel. so there's definitely a need to both educate activists & recognize that innocent misunderstandings occur

temp8964 5y ago

Is Hamas rocket attack considered as "government violence"?

vinay427 5y ago
Sure, if you subscribe to a broader definition of "government violence" that also probably includes aboriginal North Americans in militias haphazardly shooting arrows at European settlers that had firearms and had occupied their land by force.

yamrzou 5y ago

Not necessarily. See for example Jewish Voice For Peace: https://twitter.com/jvplive https://twitter.com/jvplive https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/ https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

fortran77 5y ago

It’s interesting that the Left hates the indigenous people of Judaea and Samaria. They usually profess to like “indigenous peoples.”

ptato 5y ago
The left hates what? The left profess to like indigenous people from where? It's interesting how people make weird sweeping statements like this that mean nothing and have no relation to any definition of left. I guess if you say that someone believes something nonsensical, it makes them look like the unreasonable one?
- ultrastable 5y ago
  this is the latest hasbara gimmick, portraying Israelis as "indigenous" in a feeble attempt to mislead people into supporting their colonialism

ultrastable 5y ago

that's both untrue & grossly antisemitic

kackerd 5y ago

One of the major groups supporting the Palestinian people and their right to self-determination is 'Jewish lefties'. Alongside Palestinian voices, those who feel solidarity because of Arab or Muslim identities, and those who work in general against colonialism, Jewish lefties who make a specific point of rejecting the 'community mainstream' of generally supporting Israel are and have always been involved in opposing the excesses of Zionism. I know some of them and they are very brave people. They are constantly accused of being 'self-hating' and even Nazi sympathizers by more right-wing Jews. It's a pretty big deal if you are Jewish and get accused of being a 'Kapo' by other Jews. And they are often treated with suspicion or worse by other pro-Palestinian activists. Many people expect them to constantly condemn, apologize for or disassociate themselves from Israel's actions, simply because they are Jewish. They also have to contend with the fact that a proportion of their 'allies' are either actual antisemites using Palestine as a pretext, or well-meaning idiots who get caught up in conspiracy theories and racist tropes without understanding how they are connected to antisemitism. I would say that being leftwing and opposed to the status quo in Israel is one of the major reasons that Jewish people become disillusioned with their community and end up completely rejecting the religious identity. And having to deal with accusations like yours is one of the main things stopping Jewish people who oppose the Israeli occupation from being more involved in activism.

ultrastable 5y ago
the "caught up in racist tropes" thing reminds me of an incident that occurred at my university. there was a speech by someone involved w/ the Israeli govt & during the Q&A a Palestine activist asked them a question about organ harvesting by Israeli doctors. immediately she was accused of perpetuating the blood libel & a lot of Jewish students got understandably pissed off. but it turned out that her question was in reference to a specific incident where Israeli doctors actually did harvest organs w/o permission from relatives from dead Palestinians as well as Israelis: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathol.... I spoke to her afterwards & she hadn't even heard of the blood libel. so there's definitely a need to both educate activists & recognize that innocent misunderstandings occur