6 ms·

I mean lots of these posts are anti Semitic and pro terrorism. They perma banned trump for less.

washadjeffmad 5y ago
Palestinians are Semites. If you weren't aware, consider why. Israeli, Jewish, and zionist are not all different words for the same thing.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Arab Israelis are also Semites, and are just as much a target of anti-Israeli attitudes as Israeli Jews. The Palestinian identity is historically bound up with opposition to Israel which has often gone as far as outright hate, e.g. in Palestinian mass-media propaganda and early school education. This is what Israel has to work with, while seeking some sort of durable peace in the region. It's not an easy situation for them.
  - ttt0 5y ago
    > The Palestinian identity is historically bound up with opposition to Israel Yeah, I wonder why is that. It's not like they have any valid reason to be against Israel, like having their land being taken away from them in what is basically a lebensraum, so it's surely has to be just some kind of irrational hatred towards Jews.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      > having their land being taken away from them in what is basically a lebensraum I will concede that this is a common framing of the facts from the Palestinian side. It's not nearly as easy to describe it as 'neutral' however, or to ascertain with any certainty what counts as any "valid reason" as opposed to "irrational hate".
      - Dah00n 5y ago
        No, it is a common framing of the facts from all sides except Israeli and pro-israel people. It is lebensraum V2.0
      - lucideer 5y ago
        Describing it as "a common framing from the Palestinian side" implies that (a) it's a minority view and (b) there are other perspectives. But you have neglected to describe those other perspectives. Do they exist? What other way could one possibly frame this?
  - mef51 5y ago
    I promise you Arab Israelis mostly identify as Palestinian See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      The article you link to doesn't claim anything like that.
      - amscanne 5y ago
        Don’t know anything about the claim, but one relevant data point is that Lod, a famously mixed Arab and Jewish city in Israel currently has tensions bubbling over: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/border-police-officers-diverted-to-lod-amid-violent-protests-667894 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/border-police-officers-div...
      - mef51 5y ago
        It's the first sentence: >> According to a 2017 survey by University of Haifa professor Sammy Smooha, 16% of the Arab population prefers the term "Israeli Arab", while the largest and fastest growing proportion prefers "Palestinian in Israel", and 17% prefer "Palestinian Arab"
  - scythe 5y ago
    >The Palestinian identity is historically bound up with opposition to Israel All cultural and ethnic identities are synthetic. Whether we choose to accept a definition of Palestinian identity "in opposition to Israel" or not, we are not simply reading off a list, but creating new language. The area that became Israel and Palestine was partitioned between the Sanjuk of Jerusalem and the Vilayet of Beirut under the Ottomans, and the local and regional cultures and identities formed then were not in opposition to anything. To build a future, we are better off taking the good things from the past, rather than the bad ones.
  - vinay427 5y ago
    > This is what Israel has to work with, while seeking some sort of durable peace in the region. This is a situation prior generations of Israelis created in the midst of Palestinians who preferred not to be evicted and harassed from their homeland. This isn't some impossible situation in which Palestinians instinctively hate Israelis with no specific grievances. Moreover, Israel's idea of "durable peace" as proposed in agreements seems to be highly conditional on keeping the land they occupy, in excess of what is recognized by the Palestinians or even by international agreements.
- slg 5y ago
  >If you weren't aware, consider why. The problem is that the lines between many of these words are confusing and often intentionally blurred by people on various sides. While the definition of Semite includes Arabs and other people[1], anti-Semite is specifically defined as hostility towards Jews.[2] Also not all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews, not all Israelis or Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews or Israelis. It therefore is anti-Semitic when Jews are blamed for the actions of either Israelis or Zionists the same way it would be anti-Muslim to blame any random Muslim person for the actions of the Saudi government or any other specific group of Arab people. [1] - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semite https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semite [2] - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Semite https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Semite
  - naniwaduni 5y ago
    It's pretty awesome how we've allowed one side of an intra-Semitic conflict to co-opt Semitism so completely that being the other Semitic party to that conflict is anti-Semitic.
    - this2shallPass 5y ago
      The term is a misnomer. You might know the history already - the context is pseudoscientific theories concerning race in German intellectual circles in the late 1800s. Rather than Judenhass (Jew-hatred), Antisemitism is a scientific-sounding word, with an air of rationality and sophistication. Generally from the start the word meant hating Jews (not Semitic peoples as in those that speak Semitic languages - Jews specifically). If it didn't originally, it certainly came to mean that over time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Etymology Maybe people that speak Semitic languages are Semitic (I don't know - feels like pseudoscience, though there could be a lot of commonality in different ways). That being said, "Antisemitism" means hating Jews. It's not a special prize or anything. More than anything, the terminology is an unhelpful distraction from the more important things around when it comes up. I wish they stuck with "Judenhass".
      - 5y ago
- sharken 5y ago
  Palestinians are predominantly Arab and Sunni Muslims. The conflict is with Israeli Jews which is the largest ethnic group in Israel.
  - lucideer 5y ago
    The conflict is with the Israeli government. The discernment by race/religion is state policy.
    - f6v 5y ago
      And Israel is a democracy, right? I think separating people and government of democratic countries is a fallacy.
      - lucideer 5y ago
        The only fallacy here is assuming that "democracy" works that simply and efficiently. Even aside from the fact that Israel is typically rated a "flawed democracy" in most indices due to the lack of press freedom, even it were a so-called "full democracy", no democracy even claims to be representative of constituents in any direct way (even those with relatively broad suffrage like NZ). Their goal is to be a best-of-alternatives approach in contrast to more regressive systems, along with known limitations such as majoritarianism, plutocratic platform access issues, etc. So yes, it's the government. Some subset of the population may agree with them yes, but they are still very separate entities.
        f6v 5y ago
        Might as well be a very large subset. Just want to point it out.
    - rasputnik6502 5y ago
      I think it goes much deeper. You would see hostility and contempt even between children of the two ethnic groups.
    - 5y ago

Palestinians are Semites. If you weren't aware, consider why. Israeli, Jewish, and zionist are not all different words for the same thing.

zozbot234 5y ago
Arab Israelis are also Semites, and are just as much a target of anti-Israeli attitudes as Israeli Jews. The Palestinian identity is historically bound up with opposition to Israel which has often gone as far as outright hate, e.g. in Palestinian mass-media propaganda and early school education. This is what Israel has to work with, while seeking some sort of durable peace in the region. It's not an easy situation for them.
- ttt0 5y ago
  > The Palestinian identity is historically bound up with opposition to Israel Yeah, I wonder why is that. It's not like they have any valid reason to be against Israel, like having their land being taken away from them in what is basically a lebensraum, so it's surely has to be just some kind of irrational hatred towards Jews.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > having their land being taken away from them in what is basically a lebensraum I will concede that this is a common framing of the facts from the Palestinian side. It's not nearly as easy to describe it as 'neutral' however, or to ascertain with any certainty what counts as any "valid reason" as opposed to "irrational hate".
    - Dah00n 5y ago
      No, it is a common framing of the facts from all sides except Israeli and pro-israel people. It is lebensraum V2.0
    - lucideer 5y ago
      Describing it as "a common framing from the Palestinian side" implies that (a) it's a minority view and (b) there are other perspectives. But you have neglected to describe those other perspectives. Do they exist? What other way could one possibly frame this?
- mef51 5y ago
  I promise you Arab Israelis mostly identify as Palestinian See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    The article you link to doesn't claim anything like that.
    - amscanne 5y ago
      Don’t know anything about the claim, but one relevant data point is that Lod, a famously mixed Arab and Jewish city in Israel currently has tensions bubbling over: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/border-police-officers-diverted-to-lod-amid-violent-protests-667894 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/border-police-officers-div...
    - mef51 5y ago
      It's the first sentence: >> According to a 2017 survey by University of Haifa professor Sammy Smooha, 16% of the Arab population prefers the term "Israeli Arab", while the largest and fastest growing proportion prefers "Palestinian in Israel", and 17% prefer "Palestinian Arab"
- scythe 5y ago
  >The Palestinian identity is historically bound up with opposition to Israel All cultural and ethnic identities are synthetic. Whether we choose to accept a definition of Palestinian identity "in opposition to Israel" or not, we are not simply reading off a list, but creating new language. The area that became Israel and Palestine was partitioned between the Sanjuk of Jerusalem and the Vilayet of Beirut under the Ottomans, and the local and regional cultures and identities formed then were not in opposition to anything. To build a future, we are better off taking the good things from the past, rather than the bad ones.
- vinay427 5y ago
  > This is what Israel has to work with, while seeking some sort of durable peace in the region. This is a situation prior generations of Israelis created in the midst of Palestinians who preferred not to be evicted and harassed from their homeland. This isn't some impossible situation in which Palestinians instinctively hate Israelis with no specific grievances. Moreover, Israel's idea of "durable peace" as proposed in agreements seems to be highly conditional on keeping the land they occupy, in excess of what is recognized by the Palestinians or even by international agreements.
slg 5y ago
>If you weren't aware, consider why. The problem is that the lines between many of these words are confusing and often intentionally blurred by people on various sides. While the definition of Semite includes Arabs and other people[1], anti-Semite is specifically defined as hostility towards Jews.[2] Also not all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews, not all Israelis or Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews or Israelis. It therefore is anti-Semitic when Jews are blamed for the actions of either Israelis or Zionists the same way it would be anti-Muslim to blame any random Muslim person for the actions of the Saudi government or any other specific group of Arab people. [1] - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semite https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semite [2] - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Semite https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Semite
- naniwaduni 5y ago
  It's pretty awesome how we've allowed one side of an intra-Semitic conflict to co-opt Semitism so completely that being the other Semitic party to that conflict is anti-Semitic.
  - this2shallPass 5y ago
    The term is a misnomer. You might know the history already - the context is pseudoscientific theories concerning race in German intellectual circles in the late 1800s. Rather than Judenhass (Jew-hatred), Antisemitism is a scientific-sounding word, with an air of rationality and sophistication. Generally from the start the word meant hating Jews (not Semitic peoples as in those that speak Semitic languages - Jews specifically). If it didn't originally, it certainly came to mean that over time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Etymology Maybe people that speak Semitic languages are Semitic (I don't know - feels like pseudoscience, though there could be a lot of commonality in different ways). That being said, "Antisemitism" means hating Jews. It's not a special prize or anything. More than anything, the terminology is an unhelpful distraction from the more important things around when it comes up. I wish they stuck with "Judenhass".
    - 5y ago
sharken 5y ago
Palestinians are predominantly Arab and Sunni Muslims. The conflict is with Israeli Jews which is the largest ethnic group in Israel.
- lucideer 5y ago
  The conflict is with the Israeli government. The discernment by race/religion is state policy.
  - f6v 5y ago
    And Israel is a democracy, right? I think separating people and government of democratic countries is a fallacy.
    - lucideer 5y ago
      The only fallacy here is assuming that "democracy" works that simply and efficiently. Even aside from the fact that Israel is typically rated a "flawed democracy" in most indices due to the lack of press freedom, even it were a so-called "full democracy", no democracy even claims to be representative of constituents in any direct way (even those with relatively broad suffrage like NZ). Their goal is to be a best-of-alternatives approach in contrast to more regressive systems, along with known limitations such as majoritarianism, plutocratic platform access issues, etc. So yes, it's the government. Some subset of the population may agree with them yes, but they are still very separate entities.
      - f6v 5y ago
        Might as well be a very large subset. Just want to point it out.
  - rasputnik6502 5y ago
    I think it goes much deeper. You would see hostility and contempt even between children of the two ethnic groups.
  - 5y ago