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Is it another attempt to "make programming easy"?. I keep wondering if it's even possible. Can everyone be code literate? or do you have to have an "algorithmic

by danr4 5y ago

Is it another attempt to "make programming easy"?. I keep wondering if it's even possible. Can everyone be code literate? or do you have to have an "algorithmic" (for lack of a better word) way of thinking? Is it something like woodworking class vs real carpentry? Minecraft, for example, opened a door to system thinking to a lot of young people, but there's probably many more that just like the fun and not the understanding and craft, so maybe those people's brain already leaned towards it? Right now we're in peak "Everyone should know how to code" but sometimes it seems like we keep chasing the golden goose - Visual Basic, Dreamweaver, Node based programming, Webflow etc. Edit: forgot to add that the CEO has that confident delusional/visionary vibe so this certainly fits the bill. Time will tell which it is.

tangert 5y ago
Are you referring to Replit as a whole? I'm curious what your comment has to do with the launch of an app store specifically.
tocodeornot 5y ago
I agree that not everybody needs to code. I disagree with the implication that the current ecosystem isn’t excluding some people who could code: it is. Frankly, a lot of people who currently write code are only writing code because they stumbled across the right combination of tools: reducing the barrier to entry will only improve things.
- mmmateo 5y ago
  A lot of people know basic HTML/CSS and the next generation is learning it in their computer classes, but there aren’t many tools that let them leverage it to build actual websites. If there were, people wouldn’t be so forced into proprietary, expensive solutions. And a lot more people would realize code isn’t that hard. That’s what we’re trying to do with primo (https://primo.af https://primo.af).
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  Which tools do people stumble across? I never used any tools like Replit when I was learning to code.
  - kevinmchugh 5y ago
    I learned to program through modding an Elder Scrolls games. Lots of people learned to code HTML and CSS through MySpace, blogs, and I think neopets.
kannanvijayan 5y ago
> Can everyone be code literate? Why not, for the same reason that everyone can be - to reasonable standards - be literate? This is merely a new and powerful form of literacy that has become relevant due to a particular set of technological circumstances, but structurally it's not that different from the printing press preceding widespread literacy of the regular sort. And no doubt this form of literacy is powerful. It relates to an understanding of how to describe the processing of information in various contexts. In an increasingly information overloaded world, the ability to use the tool of your time to process the information you need will become a critical ability. I think one fallacy we can implicitly succumb to is the notion that "everybody knowing how to program" somehow relates to everyone being a programmer. Everyone knowing how to read and write doesn't mean everyone is an author or a technical writer. But everyone _does_ use their ability to read and write to make their own work more productive within their contexts. And even in a personal context, being able to read an ingredients list, or write a shopping list, is underpinned by literacy. What's so hard to imagine about a future where everyone knows how to build small useful programs for themselves, and just as everyone has access to post it notes and notepads, everyone having access to a few small devices that allow them to use that literacy to build programs that are useful to them in their day to day activities? It's hard to imagine the specifics of how that might be applied, but it seems easy to imagine the transformative power of that sort of a casual power being not just available to the masses, but understood and able to be exercised by all of them.
- travisjungroth 5y ago
  > Why not, for the same reason that everyone can be - to reasonable standards - be literate? Not everyone can become literate. Very roughly 0.1% of people lack the mental ability to read, even given lots of training. Flipping your argument around, it's totally possible that programming is that much more difficult than reading that 0.1% of the population isn't unable, but more like 10%.
  - chrisweekly 5y ago
    That's tacit agreement that 90% "literacy" is achievable, which number would be world-changing if it were 25%.
hctaw 5y ago
I think the problem is equating "coding" to "algorithmic thinking." Most coding problems are wiring stuff up. If you can change a tire or put together a LEGO set, you can probably write code. The problem with the golden geese that you're pointing out is mostly one of tooling, in my opinion. Undergrads at top CS programs are as clueless as your grandmother about developing software because the tools are either toys for children or extremely sharp knives with a blade on the handle. This is a problem that replit is trying to solve.
- User23 5y ago
  Spreadsheets are the classic example for non-programmers giving computers nontrivial practical commands in a systematic way.
  - kevinmchugh 5y ago
    I wish spreadsheets had better support for version control and automated regression testing. Tons of people can program, and they'd all be well-served by such tools.
offtop5 5y ago
I think everyone should be able to write a Python script to change a CSV file. Likewise with reading, everyone can read stuff on Instagram. Most of us can't read the Magna Carta. Likewise I'm pretty good but I can't code in Assembly
Siira 5y ago
I started coding as a kid with VB 6, then switched to VB.Net. I don't remember that phase all that well (it was years ago), but I think more mainstream languages are actually easier. One thing that was great about VB was Visual Studio's great GUI, GUI creator. I have still not seen anything as simple, convenient, and productive for (simple) UI development as Windows Forms in Visual Studio.

by danr4 5y ago

tangert 5y ago

Are you referring to Replit as a whole? I'm curious what your comment has to do with the launch of an app store specifically.

tocodeornot 5y ago

I agree that not everybody needs to code. I disagree with the implication that the current ecosystem isn’t excluding some people who could code: it is. Frankly, a lot of people who currently write code are only writing code because they stumbled across the right combination of tools: reducing the barrier to entry will only improve things.

mmmateo 5y ago
A lot of people know basic HTML/CSS and the next generation is learning it in their computer classes, but there aren’t many tools that let them leverage it to build actual websites. If there were, people wouldn’t be so forced into proprietary, expensive solutions. And a lot more people would realize code isn’t that hard. That’s what we’re trying to do with primo (https://primo.af https://primo.af).
ZephyrBlu 5y ago
Which tools do people stumble across? I never used any tools like Replit when I was learning to code.
- kevinmchugh 5y ago
  I learned to program through modding an Elder Scrolls games. Lots of people learned to code HTML and CSS through MySpace, blogs, and I think neopets.

kannanvijayan 5y ago

> Can everyone be code literate? Why not, for the same reason that everyone can be - to reasonable standards - be literate? This is merely a new and powerful form of literacy that has become relevant due to a particular set of technological circumstances, but structurally it's not that different from the printing press preceding widespread literacy of the regular sort. And no doubt this form of literacy is powerful. It relates to an understanding of how to describe the processing of information in various contexts. In an increasingly information overloaded world, the ability to use the tool of your time to process the information you need will become a critical ability. I think one fallacy we can implicitly succumb to is the notion that "everybody knowing how to program" somehow relates to everyone being a programmer. Everyone knowing how to read and write doesn't mean everyone is an author or a technical writer. But everyone _does_ use their ability to read and write to make their own work more productive within their contexts. And even in a personal context, being able to read an ingredients list, or write a shopping list, is underpinned by literacy. What's so hard to imagine about a future where everyone knows how to build small useful programs for themselves, and just as everyone has access to post it notes and notepads, everyone having access to a few small devices that allow them to use that literacy to build programs that are useful to them in their day to day activities? It's hard to imagine the specifics of how that might be applied, but it seems easy to imagine the transformative power of that sort of a casual power being not just available to the masses, but understood and able to be exercised by all of them.

travisjungroth 5y ago
> Why not, for the same reason that everyone can be - to reasonable standards - be literate? Not everyone can become literate. Very roughly 0.1% of people lack the mental ability to read, even given lots of training. Flipping your argument around, it's totally possible that programming is that much more difficult than reading that 0.1% of the population isn't unable, but more like 10%.
- chrisweekly 5y ago
  That's tacit agreement that 90% "literacy" is achievable, which number would be world-changing if it were 25%.

hctaw 5y ago

I think the problem is equating "coding" to "algorithmic thinking." Most coding problems are wiring stuff up. If you can change a tire or put together a LEGO set, you can probably write code. The problem with the golden geese that you're pointing out is mostly one of tooling, in my opinion. Undergrads at top CS programs are as clueless as your grandmother about developing software because the tools are either toys for children or extremely sharp knives with a blade on the handle. This is a problem that replit is trying to solve.

User23 5y ago
Spreadsheets are the classic example for non-programmers giving computers nontrivial practical commands in a systematic way.
- kevinmchugh 5y ago
  I wish spreadsheets had better support for version control and automated regression testing. Tons of people can program, and they'd all be well-served by such tools.

offtop5 5y ago

I think everyone should be able to write a Python script to change a CSV file. Likewise with reading, everyone can read stuff on Instagram. Most of us can't read the Magna Carta. Likewise I'm pretty good but I can't code in Assembly

Siira 5y ago

I started coding as a kid with VB 6, then switched to VB.Net. I don't remember that phase all that well (it was years ago), but I think more mainstream languages are actually easier. One thing that was great about VB was Visual Studio's great GUI, GUI creator. I have still not seen anything as simple, convenient, and productive for (simple) UI development as Windows Forms in Visual Studio.