4 ms·

Not being able to dance is another thing the medical literature says people in your position can't do, along with orthography. Have you considered that willpowe

by jart 5y ago

Not being able to dance is another thing the medical literature says people in your position can't do, along with orthography. Have you considered that willpower is uncommon in people, due to how willfulness is traditionally punished and killed by centuries of war? That seems to be why autistic people usually don't change and why neurotypical people usually don't innovate.

gregjor 5y ago
I think we’re going out into the weeds. I’m not looking for explanations or excuses. I can’t dance because I never cared to learn, not because I’m physically unable to do it. I have played sports and done other activities that require coordination. I got top score on my verbal/written SAT so orthography isn’t a problem for me either. The mistake would be saying to myself “I have Asperger’s so I can’t dance or write,” which would just be making excuses. I don’t think willpower is uncommon, that’s not my experience. I don’t know what war has to do with it — consider the willpower required to participate in that kind of conflict, or survive it. What evidence do you have that “autistic people don’t change” and “neurotypical people don’t innovate?” To pump up the meme that people diagnosed with autism or Asperger’s are geniuses stuck in a shell it’s become popular to retroactively diagnose historical figures. Da Vinci? Autistic. Lincoln? Aspeger’s. Elon Musk — clearly a successful and high-functioning person, may have some Asperger’s symptoms, or he may just say that because it’s cool and lets him off the hook for acting like a jerk sometimes. I don’t know. I don’t think every “innovator” is an undiagnosed autistic. It seems obvious that most innovation must come from neurotypicals because they are, by definition (in the frame of this discussion anyway) the large majority. Autistic people do change. Children often grow out of autistic behavior at least partially. Not always, some never improve, but many do. There’s no line between autistic/Asperger’s and neurotypical, those are phony boxes that insufficiently describe a literal spectrum of behaviors and personality gifts and deficits. At the extremes of the spectrum you find people who are seriously impaired, but along most of the curve people function well enough. Think about physical abilities. Most people can walk and get around and do day-to-day things. Some can play basketball a few can play like Michael Jordan. Some struggle to stand up, a few can’t get out of bed. There’s a range of physical abilities and everyone is born with some gifts and some deficits. I think it’s the same with mental abilities and personality.
- jart 5y ago
  If you're comparing dancing to sports and orthography to written SAT, then I get the impression you might not even understand what either of things really mean. The medical literature says you're literally incapable of doing it, regardless of how hard you try. Now, that doesn't say anything about your value as person. No one cares if you're bad at writing wedding cards. In fact the sorts of people who are good at those things would probably feel excited to have the opportunity to feel useful if you were to delegate the task to them.
  - gregjor 5y ago
    No medical literature says I or anyone else is incapable of dancing or orthography. A statistical average of autistics showing this or that impairment over a large sample says nothing about individuals. You should read the diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorders, which includes what is called Asperger’s. Here it is in case you don’t have the DSM-5 handy: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html A person who can’t dance or isn’t comfortable talking to strangers isn’t necessarily “on the spectrum,” and a person diagnosed with ASD isn’t “literally incapable” of doing those things.
    - jart 5y ago
      I was going off the primary materials. It's pretty clear that you won't believe that being diagnosed with a disability (well, according to ada, or whichever word you feel most appropriate) means you can't dance and write wedding cards the same way other people do. Have you considered simply challenging the definition? Instead of all this big picture epistemology? You can change the culture so that dance for example includes that thing kraftwerk does. Then no one can laugh because the perception of what it means to be a dancer became more inclusive.
      - gregjor 5y ago
        If I felt disabled or excluded I would take dance lessons or learn calligraphy, like “other” people do. I’m not incapable, just not interested. That isn’t a medical condition. I’m not interested in quixotic attempts to change the culture. A diagnosis of something so vague and variable as ASD doesn’t imply specific disabilities, or an inability to adapt and overcome. It’s an artificial label, not an identity.

by jart 5y ago

gregjor 5y ago

I think we’re going out into the weeds. I’m not looking for explanations or excuses. I can’t dance because I never cared to learn, not because I’m physically unable to do it. I have played sports and done other activities that require coordination. I got top score on my verbal/written SAT so orthography isn’t a problem for me either. The mistake would be saying to myself “I have Asperger’s so I can’t dance or write,” which would just be making excuses. I don’t think willpower is uncommon, that’s not my experience. I don’t know what war has to do with it — consider the willpower required to participate in that kind of conflict, or survive it. What evidence do you have that “autistic people don’t change” and “neurotypical people don’t innovate?” To pump up the meme that people diagnosed with autism or Asperger’s are geniuses stuck in a shell it’s become popular to retroactively diagnose historical figures. Da Vinci? Autistic. Lincoln? Aspeger’s. Elon Musk — clearly a successful and high-functioning person, may have some Asperger’s symptoms, or he may just say that because it’s cool and lets him off the hook for acting like a jerk sometimes. I don’t know. I don’t think every “innovator” is an undiagnosed autistic. It seems obvious that most innovation must come from neurotypicals because they are, by definition (in the frame of this discussion anyway) the large majority. Autistic people do change. Children often grow out of autistic behavior at least partially. Not always, some never improve, but many do. There’s no line between autistic/Asperger’s and neurotypical, those are phony boxes that insufficiently describe a literal spectrum of behaviors and personality gifts and deficits. At the extremes of the spectrum you find people who are seriously impaired, but along most of the curve people function well enough. Think about physical abilities. Most people can walk and get around and do day-to-day things. Some can play basketball a few can play like Michael Jordan. Some struggle to stand up, a few can’t get out of bed. There’s a range of physical abilities and everyone is born with some gifts and some deficits. I think it’s the same with mental abilities and personality.

jart 5y ago
If you're comparing dancing to sports and orthography to written SAT, then I get the impression you might not even understand what either of things really mean. The medical literature says you're literally incapable of doing it, regardless of how hard you try. Now, that doesn't say anything about your value as person. No one cares if you're bad at writing wedding cards. In fact the sorts of people who are good at those things would probably feel excited to have the opportunity to feel useful if you were to delegate the task to them.
- gregjor 5y ago
  No medical literature says I or anyone else is incapable of dancing or orthography. A statistical average of autistics showing this or that impairment over a large sample says nothing about individuals. You should read the diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorders, which includes what is called Asperger’s. Here it is in case you don’t have the DSM-5 handy: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html A person who can’t dance or isn’t comfortable talking to strangers isn’t necessarily “on the spectrum,” and a person diagnosed with ASD isn’t “literally incapable” of doing those things.
  - jart 5y ago
    I was going off the primary materials. It's pretty clear that you won't believe that being diagnosed with a disability (well, according to ada, or whichever word you feel most appropriate) means you can't dance and write wedding cards the same way other people do. Have you considered simply challenging the definition? Instead of all this big picture epistemology? You can change the culture so that dance for example includes that thing kraftwerk does. Then no one can laugh because the perception of what it means to be a dancer became more inclusive.
    - gregjor 5y ago
      If I felt disabled or excluded I would take dance lessons or learn calligraphy, like “other” people do. I’m not incapable, just not interested. That isn’t a medical condition. I’m not interested in quixotic attempts to change the culture. A diagnosis of something so vague and variable as ASD doesn’t imply specific disabilities, or an inability to adapt and overcome. It’s an artificial label, not an identity.