7 ms·

Three Out of Four Gas Stations Are Dry in Some Southern Cities

26 points by cwwc 5y ago

advisedwang 5y ago
Are gas stations selling out because of lack of supply or increase in demand (ie stocking up/panic buying/however you want to call the inclination to fill-up when you fear pumps might run dry)
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Are gas stations selling out because of lack of supply or increase in demand (ie stocking up/panic buying/however you want to call the inclination to fill-up when you fear pumps might run dry) Yes. There is a real supply issue, but people are aware of the supply issue causing panic buying. Prospective shortages cause a positive feedback loop.
  - moshmosh 5y ago
    What sucks about panic buying is that it makes perfect sense to "panic buy" even if you don't think there will be an actual shortage, but only panic buying. Not being able to get what you want/need looks the same either way.
- EricE 5y ago
  So far it looks like panic buying. I've seen several gas stations around here receive deliveries from tanker trucks. Yes, sooner or later local stockpiles will get depleted (thank you all the brilliant just in time manufacturing idiots from the 80's and 90's) but as long as the pipeline isn't out for a significant period of time things shouldn't get that bad. Everyone should still be staying at home sheltering in place to flatten the curve so not sure why all the consternation :p
  - canadianfella 5y ago
    > thank you all the brilliant just in time manufacturing idiots from the 80's and 90's What does gasoline storage have to do with manufacturing?
EricE 5y ago
When people hoard shortages happen. Yeah - how insightful. Next they will dramatically intone that water is wet. This will only be an issue if the pipeline stays down for an extended period of time. And with everyone still mostly working from home/social distancing this is probably the best time for something like this to happen. Hopefully it will be a wake up call to all companies that backups and disaster recovery plans only work if they are routinely tested and maintained. Any company forced to pay for ransomware (and good luck if they actually deliver anything past payment - ha!) needs to have its executive management held to account. Anyone can get ransomwhere these days - it should be nothing more than a temporary inconvenience if a company has an integrated approach to it's operations - and that's across all business areas, not just IT. Disaster recovery is NOT solely an IT problem.
- throwaway8581 5y ago
  How much excess gasoline storage capacity do you think people have? I would bet that the vast majority of people nothing more than their car's tank, and a small minority additionally have a handheld one or two gallon red canister. "Hoarding" is not enough to explain this.
  - ja27 5y ago
    Apparently as many buckets, totes, or even plastic bags as they can fit in the trunk :( Here in Florida, there's always a run on gas as tropical storms approach. Just everyone making sure they have a full tank at the same time is a big strain on the supply but there are a lot of people with generators and 5-10 five gallon cans.
  - justwalt 5y ago
    If we assume that the average gas tank is half full, and then a large number of people decide to top off their tanks, that could be a huge amount of fuel, right?
    - throwaway8581 5y ago
      That just moves up demand for the next week into the next two days. It's a spike but not that much.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
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Andaith 5y ago
I saw a gif of a lady filling up plastic bags, and I was shocked that it was allowed. I'm pretty sure other countries have rules about what containers you can/can't fill up from a petrol station. Is this not a thing in America? I feel like "You can only put petrol in your car, or in a single jerry can" as a rule, even temporarily, would solve the panic buying problem, and also make the whole place safer.
- sgerenser 5y ago
  There are rules about what you can fill up. The gif you saw was probably fake.
  - RobotCaleb 5y ago
    https://imgur.com/gallery/YWCCHnf https://imgur.com/gallery/YWCCHnf
    - sgerenser 5y ago
      https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hoarding-gas-plastic-bags/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hoarding-gas-plastic-bags/ I guess people’s stupidity is hard to underestimate, but there are still rules about what you can put gas in (“approved containers” aka gas cans). Doesn’t mean the minimum wage worker at the gas station is inclined to enforce the law, though.
- swiley 5y ago
  You're definitely not allowed to do that, there are huge signs at every gas station saying it's against the law. People are getting weird though: my gf told e I should buy some gas cans and store them on my apartment balcony/car trunk. It was surprisingly difficult to explain how dangerous storing gas is and why the requirements for it are so crazy.
WorldMaker 5y ago
Everyone is going to forget this hump in gas supply and the anxiety it causes among ICE vehicle owners as soon as the next EV article comes up. How much more proof do you need that the gas supply is easily disrupted (no matter how much you want to attribute this to the snowballing effects of panic buying, the root cause is still a single disruption/point of failure) and not just some logistics that you can take for granted as if they always work without a hitch? I really do think it's going to take a lot of people by surprise when we hit that coming cross-over point where "gas range anxiety" is (again) way higher than "EV range anxiety".
- perl4ever 5y ago
  I don't know where you live, but I'm used to power outages a lot more than gasoline outages. As evidence that is not just a delusion, I notice that you can buy gas powered electric generators in the stores. Do you see electric powered gasoline generators anywhere? It would certainly be possible in theory.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    I don't know where you live, but I've seen less than 10 outages in 35 years of my life and they never lasted more than 1 or 2 hours.
    - perl4ever 5y ago
      I can't remember a longer outage than that offhand, but in ~40 years, I'm sure there have been some. Causes of power outages I can think of that might happen in my area: - wind storm - ice storm - tornado - squirrel got in a transformer - car hit a pole I'm sure there have been more unusual things in several decades, but those are what come to mind. One thing to keep in mind is if you are in a position where only your home lost power, or only your apartment building, you may be a low priority and have to wait longer for the power company than if there are a bunch of customers without power.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    Your electricity runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, you are in a position to notice power outages much more easily than gasoline "outages". Gasoline supply is hidden behind a logistics dance of shifting prices and for the most part "outages" (really "shortages") usually get swept under the rug of economics and you won't notice them. (Until you do, such as the panic runs we've been seeing in the US South after a single pipeline hiccup.) It's a fun false equivalency, but thanks for trying.
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
I'm a little bit older, but when I was coming up in the tech field the rule for critical infrastructure was never connect it to an external network unless it was necessary. Its amazing to me that the systems that control the pipeline itself aren't on a segregated network.
- swiley 5y ago
  My understanding is (although it may not apply to this particular pipeline) that they shut some of the pipes off depending on the degree of arbitrage between the two ends. I met someone who wrote code to do this once (although I think it was a petroleum pipe to a refinery.)
  - StanislavPetrov 5y ago
    That's certainly a reasonable explanation for why they do it. But as part of our critical infrastructure, should we allow them to trade security for potential profit? I'm sure there are all sorts of added risks they could take to increase profits, but that doesn't mean that we, as a nation, should allow it.

26 points by cwwc 5y ago

Are gas stations selling out because of lack of supply or increase in demand (ie stocking up/panic buying/however you want to call the inclination to fill-up when you fear pumps might run dry)

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Are gas stations selling out because of lack of supply or increase in demand (ie stocking up/panic buying/however you want to call the inclination to fill-up when you fear pumps might run dry) Yes. There is a real supply issue, but people are aware of the supply issue causing panic buying. Prospective shortages cause a positive feedback loop.
- moshmosh 5y ago
  What sucks about panic buying is that it makes perfect sense to "panic buy" even if you don't think there will be an actual shortage, but only panic buying. Not being able to get what you want/need looks the same either way.
EricE 5y ago
So far it looks like panic buying. I've seen several gas stations around here receive deliveries from tanker trucks. Yes, sooner or later local stockpiles will get depleted (thank you all the brilliant just in time manufacturing idiots from the 80's and 90's) but as long as the pipeline isn't out for a significant period of time things shouldn't get that bad. Everyone should still be staying at home sheltering in place to flatten the curve so not sure why all the consternation :p
- canadianfella 5y ago
  > thank you all the brilliant just in time manufacturing idiots from the 80's and 90's What does gasoline storage have to do with manufacturing?

EricE 5y ago

When people hoard shortages happen. Yeah - how insightful. Next they will dramatically intone that water is wet. This will only be an issue if the pipeline stays down for an extended period of time. And with everyone still mostly working from home/social distancing this is probably the best time for something like this to happen. Hopefully it will be a wake up call to all companies that backups and disaster recovery plans only work if they are routinely tested and maintained. Any company forced to pay for ransomware (and good luck if they actually deliver anything past payment - ha!) needs to have its executive management held to account. Anyone can get ransomwhere these days - it should be nothing more than a temporary inconvenience if a company has an integrated approach to it's operations - and that's across all business areas, not just IT. Disaster recovery is NOT solely an IT problem.

throwaway8581 5y ago
How much excess gasoline storage capacity do you think people have? I would bet that the vast majority of people nothing more than their car's tank, and a small minority additionally have a handheld one or two gallon red canister. "Hoarding" is not enough to explain this.
- ja27 5y ago
  Apparently as many buckets, totes, or even plastic bags as they can fit in the trunk :( Here in Florida, there's always a run on gas as tropical storms approach. Just everyone making sure they have a full tank at the same time is a big strain on the supply but there are a lot of people with generators and 5-10 five gallon cans.
- justwalt 5y ago
  If we assume that the average gas tank is half full, and then a large number of people decide to top off their tanks, that could be a huge amount of fuel, right?
  - throwaway8581 5y ago
    That just moves up demand for the next week into the next two days. It's a spike but not that much.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Andaith 5y ago

I saw a gif of a lady filling up plastic bags, and I was shocked that it was allowed. I'm pretty sure other countries have rules about what containers you can/can't fill up from a petrol station. Is this not a thing in America? I feel like "You can only put petrol in your car, or in a single jerry can" as a rule, even temporarily, would solve the panic buying problem, and also make the whole place safer.

sgerenser 5y ago
There are rules about what you can fill up. The gif you saw was probably fake.
- RobotCaleb 5y ago
  https://imgur.com/gallery/YWCCHnf https://imgur.com/gallery/YWCCHnf
  - sgerenser 5y ago
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hoarding-gas-plastic-bags/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hoarding-gas-plastic-bags/ I guess people’s stupidity is hard to underestimate, but there are still rules about what you can put gas in (“approved containers” aka gas cans). Doesn’t mean the minimum wage worker at the gas station is inclined to enforce the law, though.
swiley 5y ago
You're definitely not allowed to do that, there are huge signs at every gas station saying it's against the law. People are getting weird though: my gf told e I should buy some gas cans and store them on my apartment balcony/car trunk. It was surprisingly difficult to explain how dangerous storing gas is and why the requirements for it are so crazy.

WorldMaker 5y ago

Everyone is going to forget this hump in gas supply and the anxiety it causes among ICE vehicle owners as soon as the next EV article comes up. How much more proof do you need that the gas supply is easily disrupted (no matter how much you want to attribute this to the snowballing effects of panic buying, the root cause is still a single disruption/point of failure) and not just some logistics that you can take for granted as if they always work without a hitch? I really do think it's going to take a lot of people by surprise when we hit that coming cross-over point where "gas range anxiety" is (again) way higher than "EV range anxiety".

perl4ever 5y ago
I don't know where you live, but I'm used to power outages a lot more than gasoline outages. As evidence that is not just a delusion, I notice that you can buy gas powered electric generators in the stores. Do you see electric powered gasoline generators anywhere? It would certainly be possible in theory.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  I don't know where you live, but I've seen less than 10 outages in 35 years of my life and they never lasted more than 1 or 2 hours.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    I can't remember a longer outage than that offhand, but in ~40 years, I'm sure there have been some. Causes of power outages I can think of that might happen in my area: - wind storm - ice storm - tornado - squirrel got in a transformer - car hit a pole I'm sure there have been more unusual things in several decades, but those are what come to mind. One thing to keep in mind is if you are in a position where only your home lost power, or only your apartment building, you may be a low priority and have to wait longer for the power company than if there are a bunch of customers without power.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  Your electricity runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, you are in a position to notice power outages much more easily than gasoline "outages". Gasoline supply is hidden behind a logistics dance of shifting prices and for the most part "outages" (really "shortages") usually get swept under the rug of economics and you won't notice them. (Until you do, such as the panic runs we've been seeing in the US South after a single pipeline hiccup.) It's a fun false equivalency, but thanks for trying.

StanislavPetrov 5y ago

I'm a little bit older, but when I was coming up in the tech field the rule for critical infrastructure was never connect it to an external network unless it was necessary. Its amazing to me that the systems that control the pipeline itself aren't on a segregated network.

swiley 5y ago
My understanding is (although it may not apply to this particular pipeline) that they shut some of the pipes off depending on the degree of arbitrage between the two ends. I met someone who wrote code to do this once (although I think it was a petroleum pipe to a refinery.)
- StanislavPetrov 5y ago
  That's certainly a reasonable explanation for why they do it. But as part of our critical infrastructure, should we allow them to trade security for potential profit? I'm sure there are all sorts of added risks they could take to increase profits, but that doesn't mean that we, as a nation, should allow it.