5 ms·

You say this like it wont be used to completely remove all user choice and be an utter disaster.

by hobs 5y ago

nine_k 5y ago
Why, I thought I was describing an anti-utopia, a kind of a dark cyberpunk future, because half of the dark cyberpunk future predictions from 1980s have come true already.
artificial 5y ago
You’re going to own nothing and be happy.
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  What do I “own” when I open a site that is a tiny HTML doc and 300kB of minified JS, plus 100 fetch calls for JSON data to render? At that point, use the DOM, use a canvas or a literal paint brush, I don’t care.
  - jtsiskin 5y ago
    Can at least block ads still (mostly…)
    - quickthrower2 5y ago
      That’s a good point. The only way to block now is to refuse to use the site.
tshaddox 5y ago
If a developer wants to “remove all user choice” on the web it’s already very easy for them to do that. The only new concern here is that developers will be tempted to use tools/frameworks for unrelated reasons (maybe convenience, cross-platform support, etc.) and those tools/frameworks will just happen to also remove user choice.
- nine_k 5y ago
  Many developers work on removing the user's choice (not) to see ads. But the pesky open nature of the web gets in the way.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    I don’t think the open nature of the web gets in the way. Those developers could quite easily generate a screenshot of the website they’re building and ship the screenshot instead of the HTML/CSS/JS.
    - Sophira 5y ago
      They could... except: a) It would be completely inaccessible to blind users; b) Sometimes devs want to be able to give users some choice, like copying text, and this is impossible with your proposed method. These two reasons alone mean it's undesirable for devs to use these, and they're problems that Canvas addresses - albeit by letting the devs have that choice, but not the users.
      - tshaddox 5y ago
        There are several other ways to prevent copying text or making it difficult, some of which probably don't impact screen readers (although I'm skeptical that many developers would be intent on preventing the copying of text while also caring about screen readers). And, of course, if the developer wants to allow copying text, that's trivial. How does canvas give a developer more ability to choose which things the user can and cannot do?
        nine_k 5y ago
        You cannot Ctrl+U and see the source. You cannot Shift+Ctrl+I and inspect the DOM. All you get is a bitmap, which is not even that easy to access. Much like a frame generated by a game engine.
        5y ago
foolfoolz 5y ago
your choices are still there. go to whatever website you want. but i think users will want to go to the best websites that have the highest production value and may not be built the same way as we did 20 years ago most people don’t come to the web for choice, they come for the apps

You say this like it wont be used to completely remove all user choice and be an utter disaster.

by hobs 5y ago

You say this like it wont be used to completely remove all user choice and be an utter disaster.

Why, I thought I was describing an anti-utopia, a kind of a dark cyberpunk future, because half of the dark cyberpunk future predictions from 1980s have come true already.

artificial 5y ago

You’re going to own nothing and be happy.

quickthrower2 5y ago
What do I “own” when I open a site that is a tiny HTML doc and 300kB of minified JS, plus 100 fetch calls for JSON data to render? At that point, use the DOM, use a canvas or a literal paint brush, I don’t care.
- jtsiskin 5y ago
  Can at least block ads still (mostly…)
  - quickthrower2 5y ago
    That’s a good point. The only way to block now is to refuse to use the site.

tshaddox 5y ago

If a developer wants to “remove all user choice” on the web it’s already very easy for them to do that. The only new concern here is that developers will be tempted to use tools/frameworks for unrelated reasons (maybe convenience, cross-platform support, etc.) and those tools/frameworks will just happen to also remove user choice.

nine_k 5y ago
Many developers work on removing the user's choice (not) to see ads. But the pesky open nature of the web gets in the way.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  I don’t think the open nature of the web gets in the way. Those developers could quite easily generate a screenshot of the website they’re building and ship the screenshot instead of the HTML/CSS/JS.
  - Sophira 5y ago
    They could... except: a) It would be completely inaccessible to blind users; b) Sometimes devs want to be able to give users some choice, like copying text, and this is impossible with your proposed method. These two reasons alone mean it's undesirable for devs to use these, and they're problems that Canvas addresses - albeit by letting the devs have that choice, but not the users.
    - tshaddox 5y ago
      There are several other ways to prevent copying text or making it difficult, some of which probably don't impact screen readers (although I'm skeptical that many developers would be intent on preventing the copying of text while also caring about screen readers). And, of course, if the developer wants to allow copying text, that's trivial. How does canvas give a developer more ability to choose which things the user can and cannot do?
      - nine_k 5y ago
        You cannot Ctrl+U and see the source. You cannot Shift+Ctrl+I and inspect the DOM. All you get is a bitmap, which is not even that easy to access. Much like a frame generated by a game engine.
        5y ago

foolfoolz 5y ago

your choices are still there. go to whatever website you want. but i think users will want to go to the best websites that have the highest production value and may not be built the same way as we did 20 years ago most people don’t come to the web for choice, they come for the apps