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(googler, opinions are my own, I know nothing about this project). I will bet that this will ship with accessibility support. If it doesn't, maybe they will l

by kyrra 5y ago

(googler, opinions are my own, I know nothing about this project). I will bet that this will ship with accessibility support. If it doesn't, maybe they will launch with it being opt-in, as they flesh out a11y. But if I were to put money on it, it will ship with a11y functionality. The good thing here is that Google already has experience with accessibility on canvas UIs . Flutter, which uses canvas on web[0] and opengl on phones, has accessibility[1]. Hopefully there was some good knowledge sharing there. [0] looks like this is a WiP: https://github.com/flutter/flutter/projects/68 https://github.com/flutter/flutter/projects/68 [1] https://flutter.dev/docs/development/accessibility-and-localization/accessibility https://flutter.dev/docs/development/accessibility-and-local...

axiosgunnar 5y ago
Great, but will it ship with ad block support? Or will I be forced to look at ads, where high value individuals (most of HN) are selling their attention for pennies (being able to view a Youtube video or whatever)?
- sp332 5y ago
  Does Google put ads on Google Docs? Anyway, adblockers that work at the network level should still work. This will make things more difficult for cosmetic removals though.
  - axiosgunnar 5y ago
    How will it work, if they are sending binary WASM blobs? This is akin to saying "pi hole can block ads in .exe files"
    - sp332 5y ago
      The question is, who is sending binary WASM blobs? That ad data needs to come from an ad server, and if network requests to the ad servers are blocked, the ads will not load.
      - axiosgunnar 5y ago
        I see, that is a valid point. I suppose Google could provide dynamically including ad content into the WASM blob before serving it out to the browser, but I would agree if you said this is pure speculation.
        sp332 5y ago
        Yeah, and it's possible today to route that data through a first-party server and randomize the file paths too. So I would say it's plausible, but moving to canvas doesn't automatically make that part worse.
      - nonbirithm 5y ago
        > That ad data needs to come from an ad server It might, but it doesn't have to be served from a different website. YouTube content is indistinguishable from ads since Google serves them both from the same domain. pi-hole does not work with YouTube ads, and it hasn't for years. Needing to reverse engineer and recompile the YouTube app is the only way to block YouTube ads with the mobile client. It's the same situation with everything being a JavaScript canvas with custom rendering. The bar for preventing ad-infested content from being shown becomes much higher than simply removing an HTML element when everything is byte-compiled. I feel like this is not talked about enough, because the implications are heartbreaking. This will be the end game for web ads: WASM + single canvas for ads and content + companies with the infrastructure to host ads on the same domain as the content. There will be no longer be a single content blocker that will be automatically compatible with a large ratio of web content if such a combination of tech becomes widely adopted. YouTube Vanced is essentially one of those specialized content blockers, where YouTube is a service lucrative enough to wall off with its own specialized ads implementation. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I would guess that the only reason the ad agencies haven't won out and pushed WASM/canvas rendering everywhere is because of the necessity of screen readers.
    - google234123 5y ago
      Sites have the right to try and subvert ad blocking if they want. I dont see the issue. Someone has to pay for free content.
endisneigh 5y ago
Do you have an example? The demos here are not accessible at all: https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/ https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/
justinph 5y ago
The fact that there isn't a word about accessibility in this blog post is beyond disheartening. I would really like to know how they're doing it. Is it the Accessibility Object Model (which AFAIK, isn't fully baked)? Some shadow DOM thing? Accessibility is a foundational feature of the web. Without it, it is 100% broken. Its also a bit disheartening to read that someone would consider accessibility an optional thing that could be shipped later.

by kyrra 5y ago

axiosgunnar 5y ago

Great, but will it ship with ad block support? Or will I be forced to look at ads, where high value individuals (most of HN) are selling their attention for pennies (being able to view a Youtube video or whatever)?

sp332 5y ago
Does Google put ads on Google Docs? Anyway, adblockers that work at the network level should still work. This will make things more difficult for cosmetic removals though.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  How will it work, if they are sending binary WASM blobs? This is akin to saying "pi hole can block ads in .exe files"
  - sp332 5y ago
    The question is, who is sending binary WASM blobs? That ad data needs to come from an ad server, and if network requests to the ad servers are blocked, the ads will not load.
    - axiosgunnar 5y ago
      I see, that is a valid point. I suppose Google could provide dynamically including ad content into the WASM blob before serving it out to the browser, but I would agree if you said this is pure speculation.
      - sp332 5y ago
        Yeah, and it's possible today to route that data through a first-party server and randomize the file paths too. So I would say it's plausible, but moving to canvas doesn't automatically make that part worse.
    - nonbirithm 5y ago
      > That ad data needs to come from an ad server It might, but it doesn't have to be served from a different website. YouTube content is indistinguishable from ads since Google serves them both from the same domain. pi-hole does not work with YouTube ads, and it hasn't for years. Needing to reverse engineer and recompile the YouTube app is the only way to block YouTube ads with the mobile client. It's the same situation with everything being a JavaScript canvas with custom rendering. The bar for preventing ad-infested content from being shown becomes much higher than simply removing an HTML element when everything is byte-compiled. I feel like this is not talked about enough, because the implications are heartbreaking. This will be the end game for web ads: WASM + single canvas for ads and content + companies with the infrastructure to host ads on the same domain as the content. There will be no longer be a single content blocker that will be automatically compatible with a large ratio of web content if such a combination of tech becomes widely adopted. YouTube Vanced is essentially one of those specialized content blockers, where YouTube is a service lucrative enough to wall off with its own specialized ads implementation. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I would guess that the only reason the ad agencies haven't won out and pushed WASM/canvas rendering everywhere is because of the necessity of screen readers.
  - google234123 5y ago
    Sites have the right to try and subvert ad blocking if they want. I dont see the issue. Someone has to pay for free content.

endisneigh 5y ago

Do you have an example? The demos here are not accessible at all: https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/ https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/

justinph 5y ago

The fact that there isn't a word about accessibility in this blog post is beyond disheartening. I would really like to know how they're doing it. Is it the Accessibility Object Model (which AFAIK, isn't fully baked)? Some shadow DOM thing? Accessibility is a foundational feature of the web. Without it, it is 100% broken. Its also a bit disheartening to read that someone would consider accessibility an optional thing that could be shipped later.