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Can confirm. I live in a large town/small city (80k people, 140k in the county with 30k commuting in to the city) and this is exactly how every issue goes. I'v

Can confirm. I live in a large town/small city (80k people, 140k in the county with 30k commuting in to the city) and this is exactly how every issue goes. I've been organizing around climate and sustainability, housing (affordability and density), economics, you name it and this how it all always goes. It's really hard, as one of those activists, to not burn out and get cynical. Those who have theirs, are quite comfortable with the way things are, and do not want the smallest amount of change are often also retired and have infinite time on their hands - which they can use to great effect to lobby local governments and organize with their friends. It's really hard to effectively organize against that among people who are trying to get themselves established in their careers, or who are starting/raising young families, or who are on the career grind. None of us have the time or energy to stay on a council meeting until 3 am every week. But we've finally gotten fed up to the point where we're starting to put together an organization that looks like a political party with in a political party (our city is a one party town so we have to operate with in that party). It will canvas and organize volunteers and build a database we can use to simply overwhelm that loud minority. It's going to be a fuck ton of work, and it may fall apart before it gets going, but this seems like the only way forward.

alexose 5y ago
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with regards to the “infinite time” problem. Time is the currency of local government, and those of us with other commitments simply can’t go up against folks who make it their sole purpose to be loud at meetings. The only leverage we have is our greater numbers, which doesn’t count for much if we don’t organize.
- dv_dt 5y ago
  That’s where I think overwork at almost all levels of pay scales is an insidious negative on our lives but also as a side effect our governments too. Less socialization, more isolation, less goverment oversight and participation.
  - matz1 5y ago
    Thats why goverment all over the world likes lockdown so much.
  - giovannibonetti 5y ago
    I Hope governments find a way to bring this conversations to the digital world, with some kind of voting scheme. This way, even people with scarce time can participate in important discussions.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      This is definitely possible. Accela [1] [2] is a company that makes software for cities to administer their operations, and quite a few cities in the US use it. Login.gov [3] is available for identity proofing and authentication services to cities and local governments. It would be straightforward to implement a system where voting issues could be created, citizens notified (sms, email, or paper mailing with a QR code), and votes collected during a window of time. I'm aware of the significant infosec challenges online voting is up against, but I do believe headway can be made to enable broader citizen participation and equity in these issues. Tangentially, the NREL recently developed an app that streamlines the rooftop solar permitting process by integrating with the Accela city administration product. Permitting time has gone down from weeks to days (or sometimes minutes). [4] Progress is possible. [1] https://www.accela.com/ https://www.accela.com/ [2] https://developer.accela.com/ https://developer.accela.com/ [3] https://www.gsa.gov/blog/2021/02/18/logingov-to-provide-authentication-and-identity-proofing-services-to-a-limited-number-of-federally-funded-state-and-local-government-programs https://www.gsa.gov/blog/2021/02/18/logingov-to-provide-auth... [4] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nrel-solar-app-rooftop-residential-instant-permitting-in-majority-us-installations/599403/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nrel-solar-app-rooftop-resi...
    - notJim 5y ago
      One simple thing governments are doing is reaching out to people with surveys and stuff, rather than relying only on the people who come to them. There are a lot more people who can spend 15 minutes filling out a survey on their phone than there are who can spend hours on a weeknight waiting to testify at a meeting. Around me, the government buys Instagram ads and sends out mailers to show off new bridges they're working on, and gather opinions, among other things. It's not perfect, but I think it's a step in the right direction.
- LanceH 5y ago
  The government also tends to only operate during business hours without any care for anyone else.
ryandrake 5y ago
Same here, I'm in a ~90K town on the outskirts of the Bay Area, and there is a proposal to build a handful of "affordable apartments" in the downtown area. I get the feeling that most people are apathetic, maybe slightly for it, since more housing is probably, in the balance, good for the Bay Area. But, man, the few people against it are really against it, they are organized, retired (so they have infinite time to fight it), have seemingly infinite funds, and are really, really angry. If you just looked at the surface, you'd think it was a huge angry mob. But, it's actually the same tiny group of people writing their letters to the local paper and attending the council meetings over and over. They are very good at projecting strength and amplifying their message through various media. If I was actually passionate about building affordable housing, I would definitely burn out and get cynical, having to face this every time. It works exactly like this all the way up from local through to federal politics. We Can't Have Nice Things in democracies, because of a small number of people willing to commit their entire souls, lives and money to some niche cause that's a net-bad, and they won't quit, even after losing 50 times. All it takes is that 51st time, and they'll definitely be at the fight.
- mikem170 5y ago
  > But, it's actually the same tiny group of people writing their letters to the local paper and attending the council meetings over and over. > We Can't Have Nice Things in democracies, because of a small number of people I wonder if this is more a problem with representational government. In a democracy there would be no council to influence, instead everyone would have an equal vote on the issue.
  - dbingham 5y ago
    I think it would still be a problem, but a lesser one. A loud minority can still influence a majority. But it's harder. The thing with direct democracy is that we'd really need to implement like a 20 hour work week to make it work. Everyone would need to find the time to get up to date on all of the issues. Or you'd end up with a minority of people who happen to know and care about each issue controlling that issue... which maybe that's okay, actually. It would be really interesting to see how a true direct democracy behaved at the government level. I've seen it work at the level of a workplace or a housing cooperative. And it does work, it's effortful, but it works. But I dunno if it's ever really been tried at the level of a government.
kingsuper20 5y ago
>our city is a one party town so we have to operate with in that party I think that matters less than you might think. Most decisions of any import are done by city and county staff, a few by appointed organizations like planning commissions (usually filled with yet more activists, each with their own activist kink), and finally an elected official(s) who spends most of their time handing out awards and declaring civic festivals.

alexose 5y ago

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with regards to the “infinite time” problem. Time is the currency of local government, and those of us with other commitments simply can’t go up against folks who make it their sole purpose to be loud at meetings. The only leverage we have is our greater numbers, which doesn’t count for much if we don’t organize.

dv_dt 5y ago
That’s where I think overwork at almost all levels of pay scales is an insidious negative on our lives but also as a side effect our governments too. Less socialization, more isolation, less goverment oversight and participation.
- matz1 5y ago
  Thats why goverment all over the world likes lockdown so much.
- giovannibonetti 5y ago
  I Hope governments find a way to bring this conversations to the digital world, with some kind of voting scheme. This way, even people with scarce time can participate in important discussions.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    This is definitely possible. Accela [1] [2] is a company that makes software for cities to administer their operations, and quite a few cities in the US use it. Login.gov [3] is available for identity proofing and authentication services to cities and local governments. It would be straightforward to implement a system where voting issues could be created, citizens notified (sms, email, or paper mailing with a QR code), and votes collected during a window of time. I'm aware of the significant infosec challenges online voting is up against, but I do believe headway can be made to enable broader citizen participation and equity in these issues. Tangentially, the NREL recently developed an app that streamlines the rooftop solar permitting process by integrating with the Accela city administration product. Permitting time has gone down from weeks to days (or sometimes minutes). [4] Progress is possible. [1] https://www.accela.com/ https://www.accela.com/ [2] https://developer.accela.com/ https://developer.accela.com/ [3] https://www.gsa.gov/blog/2021/02/18/logingov-to-provide-authentication-and-identity-proofing-services-to-a-limited-number-of-federally-funded-state-and-local-government-programs https://www.gsa.gov/blog/2021/02/18/logingov-to-provide-auth... [4] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nrel-solar-app-rooftop-residential-instant-permitting-in-majority-us-installations/599403/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nrel-solar-app-rooftop-resi...
  - notJim 5y ago
    One simple thing governments are doing is reaching out to people with surveys and stuff, rather than relying only on the people who come to them. There are a lot more people who can spend 15 minutes filling out a survey on their phone than there are who can spend hours on a weeknight waiting to testify at a meeting. Around me, the government buys Instagram ads and sends out mailers to show off new bridges they're working on, and gather opinions, among other things. It's not perfect, but I think it's a step in the right direction.
LanceH 5y ago
The government also tends to only operate during business hours without any care for anyone else.

ryandrake 5y ago

Same here, I'm in a ~90K town on the outskirts of the Bay Area, and there is a proposal to build a handful of "affordable apartments" in the downtown area. I get the feeling that most people are apathetic, maybe slightly for it, since more housing is probably, in the balance, good for the Bay Area. But, man, the few people against it are really against it, they are organized, retired (so they have infinite time to fight it), have seemingly infinite funds, and are really, really angry. If you just looked at the surface, you'd think it was a huge angry mob. But, it's actually the same tiny group of people writing their letters to the local paper and attending the council meetings over and over. They are very good at projecting strength and amplifying their message through various media. If I was actually passionate about building affordable housing, I would definitely burn out and get cynical, having to face this every time. It works exactly like this all the way up from local through to federal politics. We Can't Have Nice Things in democracies, because of a small number of people willing to commit their entire souls, lives and money to some niche cause that's a net-bad, and they won't quit, even after losing 50 times. All it takes is that 51st time, and they'll definitely be at the fight.

mikem170 5y ago
> But, it's actually the same tiny group of people writing their letters to the local paper and attending the council meetings over and over. > We Can't Have Nice Things in democracies, because of a small number of people I wonder if this is more a problem with representational government. In a democracy there would be no council to influence, instead everyone would have an equal vote on the issue.
- dbingham 5y ago
  I think it would still be a problem, but a lesser one. A loud minority can still influence a majority. But it's harder. The thing with direct democracy is that we'd really need to implement like a 20 hour work week to make it work. Everyone would need to find the time to get up to date on all of the issues. Or you'd end up with a minority of people who happen to know and care about each issue controlling that issue... which maybe that's okay, actually. It would be really interesting to see how a true direct democracy behaved at the government level. I've seen it work at the level of a workplace or a housing cooperative. And it does work, it's effortful, but it works. But I dunno if it's ever really been tried at the level of a government.

kingsuper20 5y ago

>our city is a one party town so we have to operate with in that party I think that matters less than you might think. Most decisions of any import are done by city and county staff, a few by appointed organizations like planning commissions (usually filled with yet more activists, each with their own activist kink), and finally an elected official(s) who spends most of their time handing out awards and declaring civic festivals.