4 ms·

The charging time issue is basically solved for cars, but not nearly solved for long haul trucks (which both require more energy and expect a lower idle:active

The charging time issue is basically solved for cars, but not nearly solved for long haul trucks (which both require more energy and expect a lower idle:active time ratio). It seems worth exploring alternate fuel sources for that case.

danielscrubs 5y ago
How so? My friend told me just last week that all the charging stations where full because even if 20-30 min might not seem like a long time, on a busy station the queues becomes intense. Meetings are missed if you don’t plan ahead.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  The needs of trucks are very different than the needs of commercial vehicles, so that 20-30 min charging time becomes several hours if not more. They might just do battery swapping at that point.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    The bigger the battery the faster you can charge it. And commercial drivers have to stop for an 8 hour rest every 8 hours of work by law anyway(at least here in UK/EU). Even using the already existing infrastructure and charging at the relatively common 150kW, you're regaining 1.2MWh(!!!!!!) capacity in those 8 hours. That's a lot of energy, about 12 Tesla Model X batteries worth.
    - bluGill 5y ago
      In the US team drivers are common: two drivers in one truck, one drives while the other sleeps, they take turns who is driving. They still need to stop for fuel/supplies and exercise, but they can cover a lot of ground in a day because they never stop for very long (they are very careful to track all restroom breaks so that they can prove they never exceed the legal limits of how long they can drive before a rest)
    - darksaints 5y ago
      A large percentage of long haul trucks have team drivers, which legally can and do run 24/7. Even for those that don't, you're talking about building charging infrastructure for a huge quantity of trucks most of which will be wanting to charge at the same time. It's hard enough to get commercial 240v connections in the US, how hard do you think it would be for truck stops to get 10MW connections?
      - gambiting 5y ago
        I really don't know. Don't have the answer for US. All I can say is that we ship goods cross Europe all the time(UK-Poland, trip that takes 3-4 days one way) and it's always done by a single driver, we've used many different shipping companies and we've never had a driver team - I guess that the economics of transport don't work for dual drivers in EU for whatever reason, but again, I really don't have the answer as to why. "It's hard enough to get commercial 240v connections in the US" Again, not an expert on US infrastructure, but any charging site will be getting a 10kV connection which will be then stepped down to whatever you need - it has to be converted to DC anyway so you need those transformers anyway. As to the feasibility of providing 10MW to a charging stop - really don't know, someone else has to answer this.
        darksaints 5y ago
        Yeah, the complexity and cost is pretty high at that sort of of localized power density. Most truck stops max out on nighttime parking (about 100 spaces), and assuming all of them charging at the time, a moderately sized truck stop would require about 20MW peak power...even more if they plan on having megachargers. The biggest problem is line capacity...you won't be able to piggyback on local infrastructure. You'll have to run dedicated lines from tens, if not hundreds of miles away from the nearest distribution station. Remember, most truck stops are far away from population centers, and thus electrical infrastructure, as a matter of practicality. They need too much land. I'm not betting on hydrogen specifically because 1) it's too complex, and 2) while the volumetric density is within the realm of feasibility, it's still not great. But I am betting on fuel cells. Solid Oxide Fuel Cells in particular. They're already extremely efficient, and also produce high grade (i.e. easily recapturable and convertible) heat. And they can use hydrogen, but they can also use methane, ammonia, butane, propane, diesel, gasoline, or any other form of fuel (I've run one off of wood chips!). And that flexibility has a lot of power, especially with the future of abundant and cheap non-peak power costs and rapidly developing synthetic fuel technologies.
- kackerd 5y ago
  That sounds like a good news story for EVs. So many people bought them that the installation of charging stations is lagging behind. There is no strong constraint on building new charging stations though. Soon they will catch up, and no one will have to wait more than 20-30 minutes.
whalesalad 5y ago
It’s definitely not solved. There are a half dozen different plug formats, voltage levels, etc… If you want fast charging for instance you need a special vehicle with a high voltage system. Those are not super common right now, although it’s getting better. Really this is the biggest unsolved part of EV’s.
- IgorPartola 5y ago
  The biggest unsolved part of EV IMO is the fact that mining lithium destroys the environment, and IIRC uses a fair bit of child labor. Looking at it from that perspective it’s not yet a green technology.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    Lithium mining is pretty well industrialized I think. Cobalt mining has problems with child labor.
- gambiting 5y ago
  There are? Here in UK you have Type 2(can be safely ignored for this, pretty much only used for at-home charging up to 7kW single phase or 21kW triple phase), Chademo(only used by the leafs and other Nissan cars) and CCS. CCS being the most common, there are motorway charging stations with super modern 250kW chargers and they only have CCS, so no issue with compatibility at all. Basically all new cars have CCS connectors, it's the standard. And yes, CCS supports either 400 or 800V charging, but that's seamlessly negotiated by the car once connected, I don't see that as a problem here.
  - SigmundA 5y ago
    A large truck will not be able to use a CCS charger even at 800v for under an hour. The Tesla semi look to be using a special connector with 4 parallel DC connections while a CCS2 is only a single pair. Your going to need a Megawatt for reasonable charge times, CCS tops out a 400kw at 1000v and 400amps with liquid cooled cables and connectors. BTW a diesel truck pump puts out about the equivalent of 6 megawatts after efficiencies are normalized.

danielscrubs 5y ago

How so? My friend told me just last week that all the charging stations where full because even if 20-30 min might not seem like a long time, on a busy station the queues becomes intense. Meetings are missed if you don’t plan ahead.

vlovich123 5y ago
The needs of trucks are very different than the needs of commercial vehicles, so that 20-30 min charging time becomes several hours if not more. They might just do battery swapping at that point.
- gambiting 5y ago
  The bigger the battery the faster you can charge it. And commercial drivers have to stop for an 8 hour rest every 8 hours of work by law anyway(at least here in UK/EU). Even using the already existing infrastructure and charging at the relatively common 150kW, you're regaining 1.2MWh(!!!!!!) capacity in those 8 hours. That's a lot of energy, about 12 Tesla Model X batteries worth.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    In the US team drivers are common: two drivers in one truck, one drives while the other sleeps, they take turns who is driving. They still need to stop for fuel/supplies and exercise, but they can cover a lot of ground in a day because they never stop for very long (they are very careful to track all restroom breaks so that they can prove they never exceed the legal limits of how long they can drive before a rest)
  - darksaints 5y ago
    A large percentage of long haul trucks have team drivers, which legally can and do run 24/7. Even for those that don't, you're talking about building charging infrastructure for a huge quantity of trucks most of which will be wanting to charge at the same time. It's hard enough to get commercial 240v connections in the US, how hard do you think it would be for truck stops to get 10MW connections?
    - gambiting 5y ago
      I really don't know. Don't have the answer for US. All I can say is that we ship goods cross Europe all the time(UK-Poland, trip that takes 3-4 days one way) and it's always done by a single driver, we've used many different shipping companies and we've never had a driver team - I guess that the economics of transport don't work for dual drivers in EU for whatever reason, but again, I really don't have the answer as to why. "It's hard enough to get commercial 240v connections in the US" Again, not an expert on US infrastructure, but any charging site will be getting a 10kV connection which will be then stepped down to whatever you need - it has to be converted to DC anyway so you need those transformers anyway. As to the feasibility of providing 10MW to a charging stop - really don't know, someone else has to answer this.
      - darksaints 5y ago
        Yeah, the complexity and cost is pretty high at that sort of of localized power density. Most truck stops max out on nighttime parking (about 100 spaces), and assuming all of them charging at the time, a moderately sized truck stop would require about 20MW peak power...even more if they plan on having megachargers. The biggest problem is line capacity...you won't be able to piggyback on local infrastructure. You'll have to run dedicated lines from tens, if not hundreds of miles away from the nearest distribution station. Remember, most truck stops are far away from population centers, and thus electrical infrastructure, as a matter of practicality. They need too much land. I'm not betting on hydrogen specifically because 1) it's too complex, and 2) while the volumetric density is within the realm of feasibility, it's still not great. But I am betting on fuel cells. Solid Oxide Fuel Cells in particular. They're already extremely efficient, and also produce high grade (i.e. easily recapturable and convertible) heat. And they can use hydrogen, but they can also use methane, ammonia, butane, propane, diesel, gasoline, or any other form of fuel (I've run one off of wood chips!). And that flexibility has a lot of power, especially with the future of abundant and cheap non-peak power costs and rapidly developing synthetic fuel technologies.
kackerd 5y ago
That sounds like a good news story for EVs. So many people bought them that the installation of charging stations is lagging behind. There is no strong constraint on building new charging stations though. Soon they will catch up, and no one will have to wait more than 20-30 minutes.

whalesalad 5y ago

It’s definitely not solved. There are a half dozen different plug formats, voltage levels, etc… If you want fast charging for instance you need a special vehicle with a high voltage system. Those are not super common right now, although it’s getting better. Really this is the biggest unsolved part of EV’s.

IgorPartola 5y ago
The biggest unsolved part of EV IMO is the fact that mining lithium destroys the environment, and IIRC uses a fair bit of child labor. Looking at it from that perspective it’s not yet a green technology.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  Lithium mining is pretty well industrialized I think. Cobalt mining has problems with child labor.
gambiting 5y ago
There are? Here in UK you have Type 2(can be safely ignored for this, pretty much only used for at-home charging up to 7kW single phase or 21kW triple phase), Chademo(only used by the leafs and other Nissan cars) and CCS. CCS being the most common, there are motorway charging stations with super modern 250kW chargers and they only have CCS, so no issue with compatibility at all. Basically all new cars have CCS connectors, it's the standard. And yes, CCS supports either 400 or 800V charging, but that's seamlessly negotiated by the car once connected, I don't see that as a problem here.
- SigmundA 5y ago
  A large truck will not be able to use a CCS charger even at 800v for under an hour. The Tesla semi look to be using a special connector with 4 parallel DC connections while a CCS2 is only a single pair. Your going to need a Megawatt for reasonable charge times, CCS tops out a 400kw at 1000v and 400amps with liquid cooled cables and connectors. BTW a diesel truck pump puts out about the equivalent of 6 megawatts after efficiencies are normalized.