4 ms·

> But plants also suffer, right? As far as we know they neither feel pain nor are they sentinent.

wildmanx 5y ago
Depends on how narrow your definition of "pain" is. Take a plant and put a sharp needle into its growth path. Many plats will avoid it and adjust their growth path, once they got into contact. Just like a human, a dog or a fish. The time scale is different, the effect is the same. It's a sensation that leads to avoidance of a certain negative stimulus.
- keiferski 5y ago
  Correct. Pain just means “similar to human beings’ negative sensory input” which is very myopic, if you think about it.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
flobosg 5y ago
Nociception and consciousness in plants are actually a matter of debate. There are some recent reviews addressing both topics: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00709-021-01621-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00709-021-01621-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00709-021-01642-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00709-021-01642-0
VBprogrammer 5y ago
This argument is kind of pointless regardless; industrial agriculture kills various small animals (rats, mice, birds, voles etc).
- samus 5y ago
  The argument still holds: a vegetarian diet requires way less plants (and thus killing of small animans) because an intermediary is eliminated. Cattle and other animals are good at converting low-grade plant food and leftovers into meat (and milk). But it's more efficient to use insects for that, or to just grow the high-grade plants already.
  - VBprogrammer 5y ago
    Yeah, I get that. I was only commenting on the fact that arguments about whether plants feel pain is moot while producing them on the quantities required kills animals which we can all reasonably agree do feel pain.
  - pvaldes 5y ago
    Is a false problem. This is not about quantity, is about quality. There are 50-100 species of wild flowers in a meadow and probably other 500 species of invertebrates. In a soy field they is one plant, zero insects and some chemicals, therefore is a worse (not better, worse) option in terms of sustainability or ecology. Both farming and agriculture can be bad or good. The dichotomy agriculture=good / farming=bad is a ideological construction and a nonsense.

Depends on how narrow your definition of "pain" is. Take a plant and put a sharp needle into its growth path. Many plats will avoid it and adjust their growth path, once they got into contact. Just like a human, a dog or a fish. The time scale is different, the effect is the same. It's a sensation that leads to avoidance of a certain negative stimulus.

keiferski 5y ago
Correct. Pain just means “similar to human beings’ negative sensory input” which is very myopic, if you think about it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

flobosg 5y ago

Nociception and consciousness in plants are actually a matter of debate. There are some recent reviews addressing both topics: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00709-021-01621-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00709-021-01621-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00709-021-01642-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00709-021-01642-0

VBprogrammer 5y ago

This argument is kind of pointless regardless; industrial agriculture kills various small animals (rats, mice, birds, voles etc).

samus 5y ago
The argument still holds: a vegetarian diet requires way less plants (and thus killing of small animans) because an intermediary is eliminated. Cattle and other animals are good at converting low-grade plant food and leftovers into meat (and milk). But it's more efficient to use insects for that, or to just grow the high-grade plants already.
- VBprogrammer 5y ago
  Yeah, I get that. I was only commenting on the fact that arguments about whether plants feel pain is moot while producing them on the quantities required kills animals which we can all reasonably agree do feel pain.
- pvaldes 5y ago
  Is a false problem. This is not about quantity, is about quality. There are 50-100 species of wild flowers in a meadow and probably other 500 species of invertebrates. In a soy field they is one plant, zero insects and some chemicals, therefore is a worse (not better, worse) option in terms of sustainability or ecology. Both farming and agriculture can be bad or good. The dichotomy agriculture=good / farming=bad is a ideological construction and a nonsense.