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Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being

by pfp 5y ago

Don't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job not been a lot better substance-wise, the whole exercise would have been total waste of time. Of course you'll want to dictate from a position where you can follow your ultimatum if need be. The nearing end of Covid is where people like us can - indeed must - make a stand against the returning suffocating madness of boring commutes, noisy open plan offices, incessant context switches; against sacrificing one's creativity, flow and personal space to placate the emotional instincts and biases of the excessively social who rarely do the heavy lifting in our sector. Stay determined and keep up the good work.

quickthrower2 5y ago
Companies are well accustomed to bullshitting employees, so many people do fall for their lies. Or they may have not been lying but just reacting to circumstances. They can’t give everyone everything needed to make everyone stay if the threaten to leave but they can do it for the one who does actually threaten to leave. As a team lead I don’t believe in convincing someone to stay if they took an offer. Their heart and soul has left the building!
heavyset_go 5y ago
> boring commutes They're not just boring, they're dangerous and expensive, especially if you're commuting by car. Commutes are responsible for a 9.91% drop in hourly wages[1]. Using the media commute time, a commuter might spend close to 10 days per year just commuting, and in some cases it's closer to two full weeks[1]: > In the area with the longest average commute (New York-Newark-Jersey City), commuters are spending an average of 13 days, 2 hours, and 26 minutes driving to and from work. That means that 14 vacation days a year are barely covering the time it takes to get to work every day. So in addition to dropping the average wage from $34.71 per hour to $30.15 per hour, in order to get 14 days of hanging with their family on a beach, New York commuters must be willing to spend nearly as much time sitting in a car. [1] https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator
- brianwawok 5y ago
  I mean you literally picked the longest commute average in the country. My current commute is 8 minutes, hard to even get a podcast fired up.
  - jeromegv 5y ago
    And you literally picked the shortest one which isn't much better, the average commute is 53min per day in the US.
    - hparadiz 5y ago
      My commute on the east coast when I lived there was 15 minutes and I still hated it cause I had to actually get showered, dressed, and look presentable and then actually get on my bike and weave through some aggressive traffic to get there. It was only two miles but I'd still rather not do it at all. And in the winter... It's just torture on the body.
      - oftenwrong 5y ago
        Good point: The measurements of commuting time should include all preparation. Dressing, preparing lunch, ironing, etc.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    The median commute time results in spending almost 10 days commuting a year.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      Considering the kind of people I'd have to live amongst if I lived near the jobs 20 days is a small price to pay for freedom and sanity.
      - inetknght 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
perl4ever 5y ago
>Being on the spectrum I don't think that is why you made a suboptimal choice; I think that's why you incorrectly think you made a suboptimal choice. They might regret losing you, but that doesn't mean that good things would have happened if you tried to apply leverage before. The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally wound a relationship making getting a concession you want moot. As you say, the new job was "a lot better substance-wise", so it's a good thing you didn't try to hold their feet to the fire.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bbarnett 5y ago
  I think it's a shame, that negotiations have to end up so... damaging. There's no reason for it, but ego, and emotionalism on both sides. Saying: "I'm at a point where remote matters to me quite a bit, and I won't sacrifice pay for it. If you can't do it, I'll start applying with those who will, but I thought I owed you the honest truth." It doesn't need to be emotionally driven. Just honest truth. And I get that, as you say, bizarrely negative consequences can follow. Me? I respect the truth. I can work with it. I want to hear it. Many don't. Yet, maybe this is an additional indicator of employer value, and potential toxicity?
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    > There's no reason for it, but ego, and emotionalism on both sides. Saying: That is what people say when they have options and can dictate terms. It only gets emotional when one party does not have the clear upper hand and so tries to “feel” the other party out to see what they will yield.
    - bbarnett 5y ago
      Right, yet the employee's emotionalism here, stems from many employers making this an emotional event. So my "no reason for it" was stated with this in mind. As an employer, I'd like to know. Other employers seem to be vindictive, which I find bizarre. Worse, enough employers act this way, that they poison the pool. Then these same employers act surprised, and wonder why they get little warning when an employee leaves. Silly.
yawaworht1978 5y ago
It depends, most digital companies will accept remote so long it is in the same state or country. But other countries and time zones are the demarcation line, so to say. Often due to taxes or regulations. Some FAANG plus Twitter have many forever remote positions, but with geographic limits.
agogdog 5y ago
>Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore I've been in this position a couple times with pay raises... and to be honest once this happens the job is more or less dead for me anyway. To only pay me what I asked because I'm leaving absolutely obliterates my trust.
- barrkel 5y ago
  There's a way to play it in a less antagonistic fashion. If you really want to stay, you can still look for another offer with the conditions you want, and use it to point out that the company is being unreasonable in its demands and that market conditions for labour have shifted, and actually they are putting themselves in a bad position trying to enforce their preferences against prevailing conditions. (IMO most people shouldn't go more than a few years without checking the job market and getting an offer, even without intent to switch jobs.)
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  I never take counteroffers and make it clear at every job that I don't take them because in my view if they could have paid me more but didn't, they were stealing from me. If I presented a case for a raise and didn't get it, they were also lying to me about the inability to give me one. Why hang around at a company like that? If I'm valuable to the company, it's foolish try to save a few dollars because it'll just end with them spending far more recruiting a replacement. I have no way of knowing if this has resulted in better salary increases over the years than if I had played it differently but it certainly feels better than working for people who I feel are cheating and lying to me.
  - benjaminwootton 5y ago
    “Stealing” from you is a very confrontational view of the situation. In any negotiated situation, both sides can usually give a bit more until they reach their limit. Maybe the employee could offer an extra few hours of focussed work and the employer can offer an extra 5% salary. That’s where the negotiation lands. That can flex on either side as leverage and options move, but it’s just business. The alternative is to nail everyone to the wall in every negotiation but that doesn’t seem constructive long term.
mathattack 5y ago
This is exactly true. Have the offer in hand and that will give you flexibility.
jollybean 5y ago
If you take this advice, remember that there's a good chance you'll be fired, so there's that. Also - it's wrong and arrogant to make the claim that there is universal disdain for office work. You can have your view, that's fine, but don't assume that it's consistent with the views of others.
barrkel 5y ago
Well actually, what you did was negotiate, but with the leverage of a good BATNA. Having a good BATNA is what makes negotiation much easier and much more likely to be to your advantage. In things like a job negotiation, it's also evidence of objective market conditions - i.e. it's not just you being unreasonable.
- petecooper 5y ago
  >BATNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiat... Today I learned.
- magicroot75 5y ago
  Chris Voss method is much better than BATNA
  - barrkel 5y ago
    Salary and job condition negotiations aren't like hostage negotiations. The actors are rational (often, the process forces this by intermediation, so you don't have a human back-and-forth conversation) and ground truth is objective (market conditions). More importantly, BATNA gives you confidence in your asks. Many people simply don't negotiate at all. Trying to negotiate salary and conditions in the absence of a BATNA requires a level of social skill and confidence that many people simply don't have.
proc0 5y ago
Not saying you made the wrong choice, but I would have never taken the counter offer, and really to be in a dictating position, I would have had the job offer ready before any talk that would result in not getting what I want. If a company needs an incentive to keep you, chances are they might revisit their incentives when you least expect it and let you go at a later date.
spoonjim 5y ago
You're much better off at a company that actively offers remote work instead of browbeating your current employer into conceding it to you. In the latter case you will always be seen as a second class citizen and they will never take your career development seriously.
- spurgu 5y ago
  Not if it's part of an ongoing process where other employees through this are empowered to go full remote as well, until it becomes the norm.
onion2k 5y ago
You also need to consider what this looks like from the other side - an employee has looked a new role, interviewed for it, and been given an offer. That's a strong signal that they're unhappy and looking for the exit. You may say the fact you're not remote is the reason, but what if it's also about money or the work is boring or there's friction with your manager? The only information the company has is what you're saying, so it's likely to be incomplete. Whenever someone on my team has approached me to say they have a better offer but they'll stay if I can match the terms I've always recommended they take the offer even if I'd be sad to lose them. Keeping someone on the team who is unhappy enough to go through the hiring process and find a new role is a short term fix at best.
- taurath 5y ago
  Simply don’t tell them you’re looking. Or (less simply) have savings enough to float for a few months and take a vacation. “Fuck you” money is a joy.
- spuz 5y ago
  I agree to some extent here. I think it's perhaps better in general that employees raise their specific needs very clearly with their employers and if they feel like they are not being listened to then they should start to look to find another offer. If the very first step an employee takes before negotiating for free tea and coffee in the break room is to slap another job offer on the table then I agree it looks bad. It seems pfp did it right by first making their requirements well known and then putting themselves in a good negotiation position.
  - disiplus 5y ago
    i can tell you from my own experience and from a experience when leading a team, if they did get thru the whole process and got another solid offer, what you are buying is usually some time. from my experience when i got another offer, my then current employer matched and then extended the offer. But when the next offer came one year later i was gone. When leading the team i got a junior that said he got an offer. I got us that we could match, but we where not in the position then to offer more. And sure enough after one year he was gone.
jasonkester 5y ago
Don't negotiate. Dictate. If you're already in place and have proven that you're good at what you do, this is the way to go. "I wanted to let you know that I'll be staying remote from here on out. This last year has been a huge improvement in quality of life for me, and honestly I couldn't imagine working out of an office again. I'd love to stay with you guys (this is a great team), so let me know if that's an option. If not, I'm sure I can wind down my projects by next month." Good developers are hard to find, and the market right now is on fire, so you're a lot more valuable to them then they are to you. Even back when that was less the case than today, this was my standard method of negotiating things like long leaves of absence and shortened work weeks. I've written about it previously: https://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vacation-is-only.html https://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vac...
- cosmodisk 5y ago
  We went from office based to 100% remote since March last year. Some people were very against it but changed their minds since. Some people do want to return but the reasons are more related to management and proper target setting than the actual need of being in the office. We even did an employee survey with 20 or so questions about remote vs onsite work and majority don't want to return to office. Still, there was some push to return for some when things improve. Some said they'll simply quit their jobs if asked to return,while I simply said that I don't see a reason to spend 3h on commuting just to sit in the office and email/call my colleagues. My department was left alone. Eventually I agreed to work remotely from a different country for a prolonged period.
- sdevonoes 5y ago
  > Good developers are hard to find, and the market right now is on fire, so you're a lot more valuable to them then they are to you. As much as I think this is true, somehow experience tells me the other way around: valuable employees leaving company X doesn't make company X sweat. Company X just hires more... and there is always someone who can be hired. A couple of months later, everything is alright again and once realized that that valuable employee was just another cog in the machine.
lmilcin 5y ago
> Don't negotiate. Dictate. Everything is a negotiation. You have only limited power over your employer. If you think you can "dictate", you don't understand the relationship you have. If what you think "dictating" works, that is because it really is a negotiation and your employer decided they will meet your demands. "Dictating" may get you a label attached, that you are hard to negotiate with, fussy, capricious, etc. Don't do it. It is much better to sound reasonable because it has much better chance to be met with reasonable answer.
- scotty79 5y ago
  If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate anything. It's not a negotiation if there's no option for the employer to get any concessions from you and give you less than what you demand. So not everything is a negotiation. Sometimes it's just offer and decission.
  - lmilcin 5y ago
    First of all, the only time there is no negotiation is if you don't have a choice. Will the company fold if you leave it? I have personally been in this situation and even then I have negotiated because the owners were only able to put so much money and above that they would prefer to just cut their losses and dissolve the company. > If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate anything. No, you just decided to give them your terms and allow the company to only approve or deny them. You take away their ability to negotiate with you in response to your demands but you did not take their ability to make their own decision. You did not dictate anything. You would dictate if you had actual power over the company. You are not really a dictator if they can refuse your offer, are you?
    - InvertedRhodium 5y ago
      By that logic, does the concept of dictator even exist? Even under threat of torture and death you can refuse to do or say whatever is being demanded of you - and if you can be refused then are you really a dictator?
mac01021 5y ago
I won't entertain any offer that comes _after_ a so-called "final offer". That would signify that I regard lying as an acceptable business practice.
wyclif 5y ago
How to negotiate continuing to work remotely? "Sorry, but I'm currently not accepting in-office work. If my employment is contingent on new in-office policies, I'm afraid I'll be tendering my resignation."
teekert 5y ago
“Nearing end”… Our CEO just stated that between the large pool of unvaccinated people worldwide and the rise of new mutation we’re look at at least 2 years of “not normal”. Also, he said we’re going for 60% in office soon. But my direct manager just says: whatever comfortable situation you can arrange with your team is fine.
cannabis_sam 5y ago
> Don't negotiate. Dictate. I completely agree, but for most people it requires them to have something to fall back on. Which can be extremely hard to establish in our current economic climate, since it prioritizes businesses over people. The logical position is to treat your (and every) employer as an aggressively exploitative entity, that wouldn’t hesitate for a microsecond to cut you loose. Build contacts, develop your network, plan your career, and most importantly, actually work consciously towards having absolutely no loyalty, empathy or compassion for any employer... that will still be a more generous position than how any employer will view you (unless they are actively breaching their fiduciary duties).
zamalek 5y ago
> found another job that does 100% remote Absolutely this. The market for talent is going to be incredibly hot in the coming months. You should have no problems finding remote work. Every situation is different, but I wouldn't use it as an ultimatum. If you see cockroaches in the kitchen, then there's probably rats. If your leadership doesn't have the maturity to look past their dogma and continue a successful experiment, what other bad decisions are they making at your expense?
throwaway48399 5y ago
> Don't negotiate. Dictate. I would take that advise with a massive grain of salt. I know someone that was working for a company that wasn't exactly working with state of the art tech. He pretty much dictated how he wanted to work there: iMac instead of a really weird PC setup, modern tooling instead of C++ which he really disliked. He went totally megalomanic, negotiated even different working hours, went with Taxi to work and 2 years later he had some kind of burn out and had to pause working for a year. In his own words, he wasn't able to program anymore. I think he completely lost it. That said, there are plenty of places offering long-term remote. Why would you work for a place that you need to force to give you the treatment that another place would be happy to give you? Probably with the job change it's even possible to get a little extra salary.
- tester89 5y ago
  What? He asked for all these things and that somehow made him burn out?
gaws 5y ago
> Don't negotiate. Dictate. This comes a privileged position. There many, many developers who don't have that kind of sway with employers. The most likely option is, if you threaten to leave, employers will just say, "OK. Go ahead." And easily find a replacement.

by pfp 5y ago

quickthrower2 5y ago

Companies are well accustomed to bullshitting employees, so many people do fall for their lies. Or they may have not been lying but just reacting to circumstances. They can’t give everyone everything needed to make everyone stay if the threaten to leave but they can do it for the one who does actually threaten to leave. As a team lead I don’t believe in convincing someone to stay if they took an offer. Their heart and soul has left the building!

heavyset_go 5y ago

> boring commutes They're not just boring, they're dangerous and expensive, especially if you're commuting by car. Commutes are responsible for a 9.91% drop in hourly wages[1]. Using the media commute time, a commuter might spend close to 10 days per year just commuting, and in some cases it's closer to two full weeks[1]: > In the area with the longest average commute (New York-Newark-Jersey City), commuters are spending an average of 13 days, 2 hours, and 26 minutes driving to and from work. That means that 14 vacation days a year are barely covering the time it takes to get to work every day. So in addition to dropping the average wage from $34.71 per hour to $30.15 per hour, in order to get 14 days of hanging with their family on a beach, New York commuters must be willing to spend nearly as much time sitting in a car. [1] https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator

brianwawok 5y ago
I mean you literally picked the longest commute average in the country. My current commute is 8 minutes, hard to even get a podcast fired up.
- jeromegv 5y ago
  And you literally picked the shortest one which isn't much better, the average commute is 53min per day in the US.
  - hparadiz 5y ago
    My commute on the east coast when I lived there was 15 minutes and I still hated it cause I had to actually get showered, dressed, and look presentable and then actually get on my bike and weave through some aggressive traffic to get there. It was only two miles but I'd still rather not do it at all. And in the winter... It's just torture on the body.
    - oftenwrong 5y ago
      Good point: The measurements of commuting time should include all preparation. Dressing, preparing lunch, ironing, etc.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  The median commute time results in spending almost 10 days commuting a year.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Considering the kind of people I'd have to live amongst if I lived near the jobs 20 days is a small price to pay for freedom and sanity.
    - inetknght 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

perl4ever 5y ago

>Being on the spectrum I don't think that is why you made a suboptimal choice; I think that's why you incorrectly think you made a suboptimal choice. They might regret losing you, but that doesn't mean that good things would have happened if you tried to apply leverage before. The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally wound a relationship making getting a concession you want moot. As you say, the new job was "a lot better substance-wise", so it's a good thing you didn't try to hold their feet to the fire.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bbarnett 5y ago
I think it's a shame, that negotiations have to end up so... damaging. There's no reason for it, but ego, and emotionalism on both sides. Saying: "I'm at a point where remote matters to me quite a bit, and I won't sacrifice pay for it. If you can't do it, I'll start applying with those who will, but I thought I owed you the honest truth." It doesn't need to be emotionally driven. Just honest truth. And I get that, as you say, bizarrely negative consequences can follow. Me? I respect the truth. I can work with it. I want to hear it. Many don't. Yet, maybe this is an additional indicator of employer value, and potential toxicity?
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  > There's no reason for it, but ego, and emotionalism on both sides. Saying: That is what people say when they have options and can dictate terms. It only gets emotional when one party does not have the clear upper hand and so tries to “feel” the other party out to see what they will yield.
  - bbarnett 5y ago
    Right, yet the employee's emotionalism here, stems from many employers making this an emotional event. So my "no reason for it" was stated with this in mind. As an employer, I'd like to know. Other employers seem to be vindictive, which I find bizarre. Worse, enough employers act this way, that they poison the pool. Then these same employers act surprised, and wonder why they get little warning when an employee leaves. Silly.

yawaworht1978 5y ago

It depends, most digital companies will accept remote so long it is in the same state or country. But other countries and time zones are the demarcation line, so to say. Often due to taxes or regulations. Some FAANG plus Twitter have many forever remote positions, but with geographic limits.

agogdog 5y ago

>Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore I've been in this position a couple times with pay raises... and to be honest once this happens the job is more or less dead for me anyway. To only pay me what I asked because I'm leaving absolutely obliterates my trust.

barrkel 5y ago
There's a way to play it in a less antagonistic fashion. If you really want to stay, you can still look for another offer with the conditions you want, and use it to point out that the company is being unreasonable in its demands and that market conditions for labour have shifted, and actually they are putting themselves in a bad position trying to enforce their preferences against prevailing conditions. (IMO most people shouldn't go more than a few years without checking the job market and getting an offer, even without intent to switch jobs.)
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
I never take counteroffers and make it clear at every job that I don't take them because in my view if they could have paid me more but didn't, they were stealing from me. If I presented a case for a raise and didn't get it, they were also lying to me about the inability to give me one. Why hang around at a company like that? If I'm valuable to the company, it's foolish try to save a few dollars because it'll just end with them spending far more recruiting a replacement. I have no way of knowing if this has resulted in better salary increases over the years than if I had played it differently but it certainly feels better than working for people who I feel are cheating and lying to me.
- benjaminwootton 5y ago
  “Stealing” from you is a very confrontational view of the situation. In any negotiated situation, both sides can usually give a bit more until they reach their limit. Maybe the employee could offer an extra few hours of focussed work and the employer can offer an extra 5% salary. That’s where the negotiation lands. That can flex on either side as leverage and options move, but it’s just business. The alternative is to nail everyone to the wall in every negotiation but that doesn’t seem constructive long term.

mathattack 5y ago

This is exactly true. Have the offer in hand and that will give you flexibility.

jollybean 5y ago

If you take this advice, remember that there's a good chance you'll be fired, so there's that. Also - it's wrong and arrogant to make the claim that there is universal disdain for office work. You can have your view, that's fine, but don't assume that it's consistent with the views of others.

barrkel 5y ago

Well actually, what you did was negotiate, but with the leverage of a good BATNA. Having a good BATNA is what makes negotiation much easier and much more likely to be to your advantage. In things like a job negotiation, it's also evidence of objective market conditions - i.e. it's not just you being unreasonable.

petecooper 5y ago
>BATNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiat... Today I learned.
magicroot75 5y ago
Chris Voss method is much better than BATNA
- barrkel 5y ago
  Salary and job condition negotiations aren't like hostage negotiations. The actors are rational (often, the process forces this by intermediation, so you don't have a human back-and-forth conversation) and ground truth is objective (market conditions). More importantly, BATNA gives you confidence in your asks. Many people simply don't negotiate at all. Trying to negotiate salary and conditions in the absence of a BATNA requires a level of social skill and confidence that many people simply don't have.

proc0 5y ago

Not saying you made the wrong choice, but I would have never taken the counter offer, and really to be in a dictating position, I would have had the job offer ready before any talk that would result in not getting what I want. If a company needs an incentive to keep you, chances are they might revisit their incentives when you least expect it and let you go at a later date.

spoonjim 5y ago

You're much better off at a company that actively offers remote work instead of browbeating your current employer into conceding it to you. In the latter case you will always be seen as a second class citizen and they will never take your career development seriously.

spurgu 5y ago
Not if it's part of an ongoing process where other employees through this are empowered to go full remote as well, until it becomes the norm.

onion2k 5y ago

You also need to consider what this looks like from the other side - an employee has looked a new role, interviewed for it, and been given an offer. That's a strong signal that they're unhappy and looking for the exit. You may say the fact you're not remote is the reason, but what if it's also about money or the work is boring or there's friction with your manager? The only information the company has is what you're saying, so it's likely to be incomplete. Whenever someone on my team has approached me to say they have a better offer but they'll stay if I can match the terms I've always recommended they take the offer even if I'd be sad to lose them. Keeping someone on the team who is unhappy enough to go through the hiring process and find a new role is a short term fix at best.

taurath 5y ago
Simply don’t tell them you’re looking. Or (less simply) have savings enough to float for a few months and take a vacation. “Fuck you” money is a joy.
spuz 5y ago
I agree to some extent here. I think it's perhaps better in general that employees raise their specific needs very clearly with their employers and if they feel like they are not being listened to then they should start to look to find another offer. If the very first step an employee takes before negotiating for free tea and coffee in the break room is to slap another job offer on the table then I agree it looks bad. It seems pfp did it right by first making their requirements well known and then putting themselves in a good negotiation position.
- disiplus 5y ago
  i can tell you from my own experience and from a experience when leading a team, if they did get thru the whole process and got another solid offer, what you are buying is usually some time. from my experience when i got another offer, my then current employer matched and then extended the offer. But when the next offer came one year later i was gone. When leading the team i got a junior that said he got an offer. I got us that we could match, but we where not in the position then to offer more. And sure enough after one year he was gone.

jasonkester 5y ago

Don't negotiate. Dictate. If you're already in place and have proven that you're good at what you do, this is the way to go. "I wanted to let you know that I'll be staying remote from here on out. This last year has been a huge improvement in quality of life for me, and honestly I couldn't imagine working out of an office again. I'd love to stay with you guys (this is a great team), so let me know if that's an option. If not, I'm sure I can wind down my projects by next month." Good developers are hard to find, and the market right now is on fire, so you're a lot more valuable to them then they are to you. Even back when that was less the case than today, this was my standard method of negotiating things like long leaves of absence and shortened work weeks. I've written about it previously: https://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vacation-is-only.html https://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vac...

cosmodisk 5y ago
We went from office based to 100% remote since March last year. Some people were very against it but changed their minds since. Some people do want to return but the reasons are more related to management and proper target setting than the actual need of being in the office. We even did an employee survey with 20 or so questions about remote vs onsite work and majority don't want to return to office. Still, there was some push to return for some when things improve. Some said they'll simply quit their jobs if asked to return,while I simply said that I don't see a reason to spend 3h on commuting just to sit in the office and email/call my colleagues. My department was left alone. Eventually I agreed to work remotely from a different country for a prolonged period.
sdevonoes 5y ago
> Good developers are hard to find, and the market right now is on fire, so you're a lot more valuable to them then they are to you. As much as I think this is true, somehow experience tells me the other way around: valuable employees leaving company X doesn't make company X sweat. Company X just hires more... and there is always someone who can be hired. A couple of months later, everything is alright again and once realized that that valuable employee was just another cog in the machine.

lmilcin 5y ago

> Don't negotiate. Dictate. Everything is a negotiation. You have only limited power over your employer. If you think you can "dictate", you don't understand the relationship you have. If what you think "dictating" works, that is because it really is a negotiation and your employer decided they will meet your demands. "Dictating" may get you a label attached, that you are hard to negotiate with, fussy, capricious, etc. Don't do it. It is much better to sound reasonable because it has much better chance to be met with reasonable answer.

scotty79 5y ago
If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate anything. It's not a negotiation if there's no option for the employer to get any concessions from you and give you less than what you demand. So not everything is a negotiation. Sometimes it's just offer and decission.
- lmilcin 5y ago
  First of all, the only time there is no negotiation is if you don't have a choice. Will the company fold if you leave it? I have personally been in this situation and even then I have negotiated because the owners were only able to put so much money and above that they would prefer to just cut their losses and dissolve the company. > If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate anything. No, you just decided to give them your terms and allow the company to only approve or deny them. You take away their ability to negotiate with you in response to your demands but you did not take their ability to make their own decision. You did not dictate anything. You would dictate if you had actual power over the company. You are not really a dictator if they can refuse your offer, are you?
  - InvertedRhodium 5y ago
    By that logic, does the concept of dictator even exist? Even under threat of torture and death you can refuse to do or say whatever is being demanded of you - and if you can be refused then are you really a dictator?

mac01021 5y ago

I won't entertain any offer that comes _after_ a so-called "final offer". That would signify that I regard lying as an acceptable business practice.

wyclif 5y ago

How to negotiate continuing to work remotely? "Sorry, but I'm currently not accepting in-office work. If my employment is contingent on new in-office policies, I'm afraid I'll be tendering my resignation."

teekert 5y ago

“Nearing end”… Our CEO just stated that between the large pool of unvaccinated people worldwide and the rise of new mutation we’re look at at least 2 years of “not normal”. Also, he said we’re going for 60% in office soon. But my direct manager just says: whatever comfortable situation you can arrange with your team is fine.

cannabis_sam 5y ago

> Don't negotiate. Dictate. I completely agree, but for most people it requires them to have something to fall back on. Which can be extremely hard to establish in our current economic climate, since it prioritizes businesses over people. The logical position is to treat your (and every) employer as an aggressively exploitative entity, that wouldn’t hesitate for a microsecond to cut you loose. Build contacts, develop your network, plan your career, and most importantly, actually work consciously towards having absolutely no loyalty, empathy or compassion for any employer... that will still be a more generous position than how any employer will view you (unless they are actively breaching their fiduciary duties).

zamalek 5y ago

> found another job that does 100% remote Absolutely this. The market for talent is going to be incredibly hot in the coming months. You should have no problems finding remote work. Every situation is different, but I wouldn't use it as an ultimatum. If you see cockroaches in the kitchen, then there's probably rats. If your leadership doesn't have the maturity to look past their dogma and continue a successful experiment, what other bad decisions are they making at your expense?

throwaway48399 5y ago

> Don't negotiate. Dictate. I would take that advise with a massive grain of salt. I know someone that was working for a company that wasn't exactly working with state of the art tech. He pretty much dictated how he wanted to work there: iMac instead of a really weird PC setup, modern tooling instead of C++ which he really disliked. He went totally megalomanic, negotiated even different working hours, went with Taxi to work and 2 years later he had some kind of burn out and had to pause working for a year. In his own words, he wasn't able to program anymore. I think he completely lost it. That said, there are plenty of places offering long-term remote. Why would you work for a place that you need to force to give you the treatment that another place would be happy to give you? Probably with the job change it's even possible to get a little extra salary.

tester89 5y ago
What? He asked for all these things and that somehow made him burn out?

gaws 5y ago

> Don't negotiate. Dictate. This comes a privileged position. There many, many developers who don't have that kind of sway with employers. The most likely option is, if you threaten to leave, employers will just say, "OK. Go ahead." And easily find a replacement.