5 ms·

why? i'd rather keep the money than give it to the state. why vote for people who want to tax you more? i realize it's nice to believe in integrity but i don

by unshift 15y ago

why? i'd rather keep the money than give it to the state. why vote for people who want to tax you more? i realize it's nice to believe in integrity but i don't think this is an example of it

sukuriant 15y ago
Tax money goes to good locations, and things you or people you know use every day. Roads, schools, and the local law enforcement come to mind.
- unshift 15y ago
  ah - you don't live in massachusetts then :-)
  - sukuriant 15y ago
    Used to live in Florida. Immaculate roads, whenever they were finished, and a school system that desperately needed more money than it was given.
    - jmaygarden 15y ago
      I live in Florida. We are middle of the pack as far as per student funding goes. Since $10,878 per student per year is insufficient, what funding level would you recommend? http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/07f33pub.pdf http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/07f33pub.pdf
- OstiaAntica 15y ago
  Tax money is taken from good locations, and goes to the prison industrial complex, failing schools, and corrupt public employee unions.
  - sukuriant 15y ago
    Failing schools, in part because of their lack of funding.
    - InclinedPlane 15y ago
      That's an old saw, but can you prove it? Can you prove a correlation between per student funding and student scores, graduation rates, or some other measure? Can you even prove that schools have reduced per student funding over the last years?
    - jcnnghm 15y ago
      http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/01/education-spending-in-us-states-and.html http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/01/education-spending... Looks like there is a correlation between test scores and funding, but it's not statistically significant. According to a review of over 400 studies, "there is not a strong or consistent relationship between student performance and school resources, at least after variations in family input are taken into account," according to a paper published in the journal Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis. This chart, http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/796DF8C7C231CFFE366308277E88CF57.gif http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/796DF8C7C231CFFE..., would seem to suggest while per-student education spending has doubled between 1970 and 2005, scores haven't really improved. Do you have any evidence that increasing funding will improve results?
      - leot 15y ago
        http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html Pay particular attention to the McKinsey report results, which found that a teacher that is a standard deviation better than the norm adds $20k to a student's lifetime earnings. Two standard deviations gets you $32k, or $640,000 for a class of 20. Teachers' starting salaries are $39k/year in the U.S., but in educationally top performing places like South Korea and Singapore teachers earn more on average than lawyers and engineers.
    - protomyth 15y ago
      The school district that spends the most (D.C.) per pupil is one of the worst. Adding money to something with a broken process doesn't really help. Heck, there are a number of startups to use as examples.
- daniel_solano 15y ago
  Unfortunately, some tax money also goes to bad locations, like people who abuse welfare and commit fraud, payoffs to politicians' allies, and overseas junkets for elected officials and their mistresses.
- CamperBob 15y ago
  I'm sure glad I don't get all the law enforcement I pay for.
jamesbritt 15y ago
Not that I'm a fan of taxes, but if people keep avoiding sales tax how are states to maintain infrastructure and services?
- unshift 15y ago
  in theory, your income taxes are supposed to funnel back down to your state (same way state taxes go back to your city). you also pay a lot of money for state income tax, property tax, tax on every gallon of gas you use, heavy taxes on booze and cigarettes, taxes on utilities, taxes on your cell phone and cable bill, excise tax if applicable, tolls, parking and speeding tickets if you get them, and fees for doing just about anything related to the government (including fighting traffic and parking tickets). i refuse to believe taxing out of state corporations is going to make a big difference. there's already plenty there, it's just used in the least efficient way possible. this whole thing with the affiliate programs is either a really lame money grab or good lobbying by big box stores.
  - leot 15y ago
    You're not taxing the corporations. You're taxing the people, as they would be if they bought the exact same thing locally.
    - nitrogen 15y ago
      It doesn't really make sense, though, to charge the same level of tax for a store that has a significantly lower impact on local infrastructure. Amazon doesn't have to build space-wasting parking lots, drive one car per person to the store, etc. The significantly more efficient distribution model should be taxed in consideration of its reduced resource use.
      - eftpotrm 15y ago
        This argument assumes there are no societal benefits from having local infrastructure though, which I wouldn't agree with. Amazon may be more directly resource efficient, but I don't think that argument taken to its logical conclusion would build a community in which I'd want to live.
diogenescynic 15y ago
Do you drive on a road? Does the USDA inspect your meat? Did you or any of your kids attend a public school? This demagoguing of taxes is getting a bit old. Reagan, Ike, and Nixon would all be chased out of the party at this point. Taxes are the price we pay for living in a society. Edit for clarification: Obviously not all taxes are good, similarly not all taxes are bad. That is my point. Life is rarely black and white. I also think tax laws should apply equally and Amazon shouldn't be given any breaks that others aren't.
- daniel_solano 15y ago
  This is a false dilemma. It's not a question of whether taxes can be justified at all, but more of a question of whether all taxes and government expenditures can be justified. Certainly, there are some things that governments that are essential. However, I think it is folly to believe that all government expenditures are prudent.
  - sukuriant 15y ago
    "However, I think it is folly to believe that all government expenditures are prudent." Agreed; however, for things such as schools and roads and a police-force, this is part of how they earn their money, so when you say no to sales taxes, you're not only saying no to all of its abuses, but you're saying no to the things that actually need it. The problem isn't with the taxes, the problem is with where the taxes go; and if we don't like where taxes are going, then we need to vote with the mind to change it, and petition our elected officials to change their spending practices. Will it work? Probably not, sadly, and I don't know where that leaves us.
    - fleitz 15y ago
      End withholding taxes, just give people a big bill at the end of the year, and ensure that the names and faces of their elected representatives are on that bill, so they can be reminded of what magnificent service has been received that year. Maybe, change tax due dates from April to the 3rd week of October? Spending priorities will change rapidly.
Agathos 15y ago
If you sincerely want the legislature to tax you less, you should ask it to reduce or eliminate sales taxes on all retailers, not just on Amazon and not just on online retailers. To grant an exemption to one company or to one industry, the legislature would have to decide which lucky company or industry deserves it. The government thereby picks a winner before the market gets a vote. When they try this, governments usually pick wrong.
- unshift 15y ago
  i agree on the overall sales tax issue (and in MA a year or two ago there was a ballot issue to eliminate it -- and for some reason beyond me, people voted to keep it). but if there's a loophole that lets me pay less, i'm going to take advantage of it and i'm not going to give the guys who closed it a pat on the back.
  - bricestacey 15y ago
    This is a reason towns exist on the NH border. it was shocking the first time I went. Cross the border and bam there are a dozen big box stores.
jamesbkel 15y ago
Well, technically you (the consumer) should be recording your Amazon purchases and paying the state your self-calculated sales tax. So, the rate does not change, only the responsibility for ensuring it is paid. That said, almost no one bothers doing so, so in theory the rate would go up. However the rate would not be the "tax rate" but instead the "rate of taxes owed which are ultimately paid".

by unshift 15y ago

why? i'd rather keep the money than give it to the state. why vote for people who want to tax you more? i realize it's nice to believe in integrity but i don't think this is an example of it

sukuriant 15y ago

Tax money goes to good locations, and things you or people you know use every day. Roads, schools, and the local law enforcement come to mind.

unshift 15y ago
ah - you don't live in massachusetts then :-)
- sukuriant 15y ago
  Used to live in Florida. Immaculate roads, whenever they were finished, and a school system that desperately needed more money than it was given.
  - jmaygarden 15y ago
    I live in Florida. We are middle of the pack as far as per student funding goes. Since $10,878 per student per year is insufficient, what funding level would you recommend? http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/07f33pub.pdf http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/07f33pub.pdf
OstiaAntica 15y ago
Tax money is taken from good locations, and goes to the prison industrial complex, failing schools, and corrupt public employee unions.
- sukuriant 15y ago
  Failing schools, in part because of their lack of funding.
  - InclinedPlane 15y ago
    That's an old saw, but can you prove it? Can you prove a correlation between per student funding and student scores, graduation rates, or some other measure? Can you even prove that schools have reduced per student funding over the last years?
  - jcnnghm 15y ago
    http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/01/education-spending-in-us-states-and.html http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/01/education-spending... Looks like there is a correlation between test scores and funding, but it's not statistically significant. According to a review of over 400 studies, "there is not a strong or consistent relationship between student performance and school resources, at least after variations in family input are taken into account," according to a paper published in the journal Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis. This chart, http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/796DF8C7C231CFFE366308277E88CF57.gif http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/796DF8C7C231CFFE..., would seem to suggest while per-student education spending has doubled between 1970 and 2005, scores haven't really improved. Do you have any evidence that increasing funding will improve results?
    - leot 15y ago
      http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html Pay particular attention to the McKinsey report results, which found that a teacher that is a standard deviation better than the norm adds $20k to a student's lifetime earnings. Two standard deviations gets you $32k, or $640,000 for a class of 20. Teachers' starting salaries are $39k/year in the U.S., but in educationally top performing places like South Korea and Singapore teachers earn more on average than lawyers and engineers.
  - protomyth 15y ago
    The school district that spends the most (D.C.) per pupil is one of the worst. Adding money to something with a broken process doesn't really help. Heck, there are a number of startups to use as examples.
daniel_solano 15y ago
Unfortunately, some tax money also goes to bad locations, like people who abuse welfare and commit fraud, payoffs to politicians' allies, and overseas junkets for elected officials and their mistresses.
CamperBob 15y ago
I'm sure glad I don't get all the law enforcement I pay for.

jamesbritt 15y ago

Not that I'm a fan of taxes, but if people keep avoiding sales tax how are states to maintain infrastructure and services?

unshift 15y ago
in theory, your income taxes are supposed to funnel back down to your state (same way state taxes go back to your city). you also pay a lot of money for state income tax, property tax, tax on every gallon of gas you use, heavy taxes on booze and cigarettes, taxes on utilities, taxes on your cell phone and cable bill, excise tax if applicable, tolls, parking and speeding tickets if you get them, and fees for doing just about anything related to the government (including fighting traffic and parking tickets). i refuse to believe taxing out of state corporations is going to make a big difference. there's already plenty there, it's just used in the least efficient way possible. this whole thing with the affiliate programs is either a really lame money grab or good lobbying by big box stores.
- leot 15y ago
  You're not taxing the corporations. You're taxing the people, as they would be if they bought the exact same thing locally.
  - nitrogen 15y ago
    It doesn't really make sense, though, to charge the same level of tax for a store that has a significantly lower impact on local infrastructure. Amazon doesn't have to build space-wasting parking lots, drive one car per person to the store, etc. The significantly more efficient distribution model should be taxed in consideration of its reduced resource use.
    - eftpotrm 15y ago
      This argument assumes there are no societal benefits from having local infrastructure though, which I wouldn't agree with. Amazon may be more directly resource efficient, but I don't think that argument taken to its logical conclusion would build a community in which I'd want to live.

diogenescynic 15y ago

Do you drive on a road? Does the USDA inspect your meat? Did you or any of your kids attend a public school? This demagoguing of taxes is getting a bit old. Reagan, Ike, and Nixon would all be chased out of the party at this point. Taxes are the price we pay for living in a society. Edit for clarification: Obviously not all taxes are good, similarly not all taxes are bad. That is my point. Life is rarely black and white. I also think tax laws should apply equally and Amazon shouldn't be given any breaks that others aren't.

daniel_solano 15y ago
This is a false dilemma. It's not a question of whether taxes can be justified at all, but more of a question of whether all taxes and government expenditures can be justified. Certainly, there are some things that governments that are essential. However, I think it is folly to believe that all government expenditures are prudent.
- sukuriant 15y ago
  "However, I think it is folly to believe that all government expenditures are prudent." Agreed; however, for things such as schools and roads and a police-force, this is part of how they earn their money, so when you say no to sales taxes, you're not only saying no to all of its abuses, but you're saying no to the things that actually need it. The problem isn't with the taxes, the problem is with where the taxes go; and if we don't like where taxes are going, then we need to vote with the mind to change it, and petition our elected officials to change their spending practices. Will it work? Probably not, sadly, and I don't know where that leaves us.
  - fleitz 15y ago
    End withholding taxes, just give people a big bill at the end of the year, and ensure that the names and faces of their elected representatives are on that bill, so they can be reminded of what magnificent service has been received that year. Maybe, change tax due dates from April to the 3rd week of October? Spending priorities will change rapidly.

Agathos 15y ago

If you sincerely want the legislature to tax you less, you should ask it to reduce or eliminate sales taxes on all retailers, not just on Amazon and not just on online retailers. To grant an exemption to one company or to one industry, the legislature would have to decide which lucky company or industry deserves it. The government thereby picks a winner before the market gets a vote. When they try this, governments usually pick wrong.

unshift 15y ago
i agree on the overall sales tax issue (and in MA a year or two ago there was a ballot issue to eliminate it -- and for some reason beyond me, people voted to keep it). but if there's a loophole that lets me pay less, i'm going to take advantage of it and i'm not going to give the guys who closed it a pat on the back.
- bricestacey 15y ago
  This is a reason towns exist on the NH border. it was shocking the first time I went. Cross the border and bam there are a dozen big box stores.

jamesbkel 15y ago

Well, technically you (the consumer) should be recording your Amazon purchases and paying the state your self-calculated sales tax. So, the rate does not change, only the responsibility for ensuring it is paid. That said, almost no one bothers doing so, so in theory the rate would go up. However the rate would not be the "tax rate" but instead the "rate of taxes owed which are ultimately paid".