5 ms·

Well, TSMC had 2020 revenue in the 30 giga-$ range. Even a few 3% sales tax on that revenue would pay for a 5 giga-$ investment in 5 years. (or a few F-35's / y

Well, TSMC had 2020 revenue in the 30 giga-$ range. Even a few 3% sales tax on that revenue would pay for a 5 giga-$ investment in 5 years. (or a few F-35's / year) That's grossly optimistic numbers, given US labor costs, startup costs, etc, but it's also potentially a reasonable investment that would be sustained by domestic and international purchases (one would hope).

fuzzer37 6y ago
What is a giga-buck?
- jedberg 6y ago
  1 billion.
  - jvanderbot 6y ago
    ... dollars :)
- mjevans 6y ago
  Engineering notation, 10^12. Since 'billion' is an overloaded term with different values depending on historic and national context.
  - madengr 6y ago
    10E9
  - dev_tty01 6y ago
    Typo. Giga is 10^9. Tera is 10^12.
fsn4dN69ey 6y ago
TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation) is a foreign company that operates entirely overseas - why would the US have authority to tax them? If anything I'd imagine they'd be against this proposal.
- jvanderbot 6y ago
  Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that "A US-led TSMC-like foundry (since we're talking about funding a US chip production facility) would be a good source of tax income that might justify a federal startup investment."
  - fsn4dN69ey 6y ago
    Ahhhh, makes sense. Also, after reading further, it appears I was wrong - TSMC has some operations in the US including some in Arizona - plus their interest in maintaining friendly terms with the US in order to preserve the existence of Taiwan is also an angle. What still worries me is that ramp up time for fabs like these are on the scale of years - if we assume a fab started right now, we'll be making semiconductors in ~2 years at the earliest (very optimistic)? It seems like the root of the issue seems to be the inventory tax and accounting rules - perhaps an exception for the semiconductor industry would help rather than even a single domestic fab (which could be impacted by natural disasters as well).
    - jvanderbot 6y ago
      Well, we dumped a lot of money into the F-35 to fill a perceived strategic gap in fighter jets that had not yet arrived. This was many years before we actually received such a jet. This kind of long-term investment of lots of money for (arguably) public good is what federal governments are _for_, in my mind. A 250M$ - 1G$ investment / year is big, but if it's self-sustaining in a couple years, that's a huge win.
    - to11mtm 6y ago
      > What still worries me is that ramp up time for fabs like these are on the scale of years - if we assume a fab started right now, we'll be making semiconductors in ~2 years at the earliest (very optimistic)? TSMC announced the Arizona fab in May of 2020. They estimate it will be at volume production by 2024. The challenge is that it's not just building the fab, but also the lead times for all of the equipment involved, getting the specialists in to install+calibrate, then doing some initial runs to work out issues before going to volume production.
R0b0t1 6y ago
Sales tax gets passed on to consumer and is regressive, pretty bad choice.

fuzzer37 6y ago

What is a giga-buck?

jedberg 6y ago
1 billion.
- jvanderbot 6y ago
  ... dollars :)
mjevans 6y ago
Engineering notation, 10^12. Since 'billion' is an overloaded term with different values depending on historic and national context.
- madengr 6y ago
  10E9
- dev_tty01 6y ago
  Typo. Giga is 10^9. Tera is 10^12.

fsn4dN69ey 6y ago

TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation) is a foreign company that operates entirely overseas - why would the US have authority to tax them? If anything I'd imagine they'd be against this proposal.

jvanderbot 6y ago
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that "A US-led TSMC-like foundry (since we're talking about funding a US chip production facility) would be a good source of tax income that might justify a federal startup investment."
- fsn4dN69ey 6y ago
  Ahhhh, makes sense. Also, after reading further, it appears I was wrong - TSMC has some operations in the US including some in Arizona - plus their interest in maintaining friendly terms with the US in order to preserve the existence of Taiwan is also an angle. What still worries me is that ramp up time for fabs like these are on the scale of years - if we assume a fab started right now, we'll be making semiconductors in ~2 years at the earliest (very optimistic)? It seems like the root of the issue seems to be the inventory tax and accounting rules - perhaps an exception for the semiconductor industry would help rather than even a single domestic fab (which could be impacted by natural disasters as well).
  - jvanderbot 6y ago
    Well, we dumped a lot of money into the F-35 to fill a perceived strategic gap in fighter jets that had not yet arrived. This was many years before we actually received such a jet. This kind of long-term investment of lots of money for (arguably) public good is what federal governments are _for_, in my mind. A 250M$ - 1G$ investment / year is big, but if it's self-sustaining in a couple years, that's a huge win.
  - to11mtm 6y ago
    > What still worries me is that ramp up time for fabs like these are on the scale of years - if we assume a fab started right now, we'll be making semiconductors in ~2 years at the earliest (very optimistic)? TSMC announced the Arizona fab in May of 2020. They estimate it will be at volume production by 2024. The challenge is that it's not just building the fab, but also the lead times for all of the equipment involved, getting the specialists in to install+calibrate, then doing some initial runs to work out issues before going to volume production.

R0b0t1 6y ago

Sales tax gets passed on to consumer and is regressive, pretty bad choice.