4 ms·

> there is a good chance your grandchildren will be able to see what you did with Bitcoin by just looking it up on a public website in half a century. That's a

> there is a good chance your grandchildren will be able to see what you did with Bitcoin by just looking it up on a public website in half a century. That's all of the internet, forget blockchains.

SahAssar 5y ago
No, it isn't, if a service is properly secured and does not sell it's data then there is no reason to think this. Please stop spreading FUD like this, it only makes people think that privacy is impossible. Even if you are talking about dragnet collection and you assume that for example NSA can store all traffic on the internet (which is basically impossible) in Utah (or wherever) for future decryption with post-quantum cryptography there is no reason to believe that they would make it public. And that is basically the worst case scenario. Privacy fatalism helps no-one.
- kodah 5y ago
  I don't think that's privacy fatalism? Did you know that Reddit's entire graph has been cached on some dudes servers and up until fairly recently allowed search by username? That includes deleted posts and edits. Reddit is not unique. People do this with Twitter too. I forget the name but there's an entire service for caching changes to your Twitter bio. > No, it isn't, if a service is properly secured and does not sell it's data then there is no reason to think this Citation needed. Reddit and Twitter aren't selling data to those people. It's an open API.
  - SahAssar 5y ago
    You're talking about public info, that people posted on public forums. Is anyone surprised that that info would be public? We may be talking about different things, but to me "all of the internet" means much more than public data and public forums.
    - kodah 5y ago
      I think it's reasonable for the average internet user to expect that some creep isn't archiving the whole internet. Public or not. We are indeed talking about the same thing, you are just denying that it's a problem.
      - SahAssar 5y ago
        I'm saying that "all of the internet" is more than the public internet. You seem to be saying the opposite, especially since you said "archiving the whole internet" which implies that any one entity has that sort of access. You say "Public or not" as if that does not make a difference, but there is a huge chasm between the privacy you can (and reasonably should) expect depending on it. I think privacy is something we should strive for, but I think that when something is said publically on a globally broadcasted medium people cannot reasonably have an expectation of privacy. The problem with privacy in my mind is when there can reasonably be an expectation of privacy but that isn't met. If I tweet something it's clear that's public. If I DM someone that should be private. Why is it reasonable to not expect that there would be someone saving public data?
        kodah 5y ago
        archive.org accepted dumps of Parler, in recent memory, which is clearly stolen information. Do you think that's the first time they've accepted information that is meant to be private? Facebook had created puppet profiles from people's contact information and made them public, notoriously. Like, at what point would you like to accept that GPs statement is not hyperbole? Would all information that was private need to go public? By then I'd say it is too late. This is a rather silly argument where you try to draw some line in online services that has been willfully greyed by the people who create these platforms for their own benefit. If you want to call GP a privacy fatalist, then I'll just call you a privacy denialist and leave it there.
        SahAssar 5y ago
        I strongly believe that privacy is important, but I also think that it is important for people to have clear expectations of when they can expect it. Is it so absurd to say that if I post stuff publically I cannot expect it to be private and if I post stuff privately I should absolutely be able to depend on it to be private? I think your example of parler is an example of a service that was not adequately secured to protect it's private communications and the facebook example is clearly unethical and just one of the reasons I don't use the service.
- f38zf5vdt 5y ago
  It's not privacy fatalism. I'm referring to the public internet, which is now mined and stored as input for AIs, if nothing else. We can only speculate that data breaches will be used for such purposes eventually too. The best you can get is E2EE communications. I find it ironic someone commenting on a text based public forum would argue this.
  - SahAssar 5y ago
    We may be talking about different things, but to me "all of the internet" means much, much more than the public internet. > The best you can get is E2EE communications. There are quite a lot of steps between public data and E2EE. > I find it ironic someone commenting on a text based public forum would argue this. I don't have any expectation of privacy here and know what I'm saying is public. On other sites/services I have privacy and know that what I'm saying isn't public.
freshair 5y ago
Maybe my grandchildren will somehow have better luck than I did. Archive.org doesn't have several forums I used to post on. I'd like to get copies of my old posts, but gave up on that years ago. I did manage to track down the owner of one of the forums, but he had no backups. "Everything stays on the internet forever" is a good cautionary principle, but isn't a strict reality.

> there is a good chance your grandchildren will be able to see what you did with Bitcoin by just looking it up on a public website in half a century. That's all of the internet, forget blockchains.

SahAssar 5y ago

No, it isn't, if a service is properly secured and does not sell it's data then there is no reason to think this. Please stop spreading FUD like this, it only makes people think that privacy is impossible. Even if you are talking about dragnet collection and you assume that for example NSA can store all traffic on the internet (which is basically impossible) in Utah (or wherever) for future decryption with post-quantum cryptography there is no reason to believe that they would make it public. And that is basically the worst case scenario. Privacy fatalism helps no-one.

kodah 5y ago
I don't think that's privacy fatalism? Did you know that Reddit's entire graph has been cached on some dudes servers and up until fairly recently allowed search by username? That includes deleted posts and edits. Reddit is not unique. People do this with Twitter too. I forget the name but there's an entire service for caching changes to your Twitter bio. > No, it isn't, if a service is properly secured and does not sell it's data then there is no reason to think this Citation needed. Reddit and Twitter aren't selling data to those people. It's an open API.
- SahAssar 5y ago
  You're talking about public info, that people posted on public forums. Is anyone surprised that that info would be public? We may be talking about different things, but to me "all of the internet" means much more than public data and public forums.
  - kodah 5y ago
    I think it's reasonable for the average internet user to expect that some creep isn't archiving the whole internet. Public or not. We are indeed talking about the same thing, you are just denying that it's a problem.
    - SahAssar 5y ago
      I'm saying that "all of the internet" is more than the public internet. You seem to be saying the opposite, especially since you said "archiving the whole internet" which implies that any one entity has that sort of access. You say "Public or not" as if that does not make a difference, but there is a huge chasm between the privacy you can (and reasonably should) expect depending on it. I think privacy is something we should strive for, but I think that when something is said publically on a globally broadcasted medium people cannot reasonably have an expectation of privacy. The problem with privacy in my mind is when there can reasonably be an expectation of privacy but that isn't met. If I tweet something it's clear that's public. If I DM someone that should be private. Why is it reasonable to not expect that there would be someone saving public data?
      - kodah 5y ago
        archive.org accepted dumps of Parler, in recent memory, which is clearly stolen information. Do you think that's the first time they've accepted information that is meant to be private? Facebook had created puppet profiles from people's contact information and made them public, notoriously. Like, at what point would you like to accept that GPs statement is not hyperbole? Would all information that was private need to go public? By then I'd say it is too late. This is a rather silly argument where you try to draw some line in online services that has been willfully greyed by the people who create these platforms for their own benefit. If you want to call GP a privacy fatalist, then I'll just call you a privacy denialist and leave it there.
        SahAssar 5y ago
        I strongly believe that privacy is important, but I also think that it is important for people to have clear expectations of when they can expect it. Is it so absurd to say that if I post stuff publically I cannot expect it to be private and if I post stuff privately I should absolutely be able to depend on it to be private? I think your example of parler is an example of a service that was not adequately secured to protect it's private communications and the facebook example is clearly unethical and just one of the reasons I don't use the service.
f38zf5vdt 5y ago
It's not privacy fatalism. I'm referring to the public internet, which is now mined and stored as input for AIs, if nothing else. We can only speculate that data breaches will be used for such purposes eventually too. The best you can get is E2EE communications. I find it ironic someone commenting on a text based public forum would argue this.
- SahAssar 5y ago
  We may be talking about different things, but to me "all of the internet" means much, much more than the public internet. > The best you can get is E2EE communications. There are quite a lot of steps between public data and E2EE. > I find it ironic someone commenting on a text based public forum would argue this. I don't have any expectation of privacy here and know what I'm saying is public. On other sites/services I have privacy and know that what I'm saying isn't public.

freshair 5y ago

Maybe my grandchildren will somehow have better luck than I did. Archive.org doesn't have several forums I used to post on. I'd like to get copies of my old posts, but gave up on that years ago. I did manage to track down the owner of one of the forums, but he had no backups. "Everything stays on the internet forever" is a good cautionary principle, but isn't a strict reality.