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Apple Gave Zoom Access to Special API for Camera During Split View Multitasking

48 points by bleair 5y ago

zepto 5y ago
It’s completely normal in software development to work with a limited set of partners to develop and test APIs before they are made available publicly. The reasons for this are fairly obvious, and Apple has never made it a secret that they do so. They talk about it openly at WWDC. The idea that APIs should always be available to either nobody or everybody simply ignores the reality of how software is built.
- splatzone 5y ago
  It may be the reality, do you think it’s fair on competing apps that Zoom gets an edge?
  - zepto 5y ago
    It’s a question that continues the misunderstanding. Zoom gets to be a partner in this because they had an ‘edge’ already in terms of having good product market fit and a huge customer base. That’s what makes them a good parter to help develop the api. I could today create a simple video chat app, but it would be silly for Apple to make me a partner in their development process because I know nothing about the users of video chat and have no customers. There is no benefit to the world in me just cloning Zoom, so access to a small feature refinement makes no difference. Generally being one of the best at what you do gives you an edge because people value your experience and want to work with you. That is fair.
    - jraph 5y ago
      If you develop APIs that requires feedback and testing, what forces you to keep it secret instead of making it public and clearly marking it as beta / experimental? > There is no benefit to the world in me just cloning Zoom There is no benefit in preventing you from using these API. What if you clone Zoom, with a better business model and/or making it open source? Or if you create a product that finds an unforeseen application to these new APIs? Your feedback is valuable too.
      - zepto 5y ago
        > If you develop APIs that requires feedback and testing, what forces you to keep it secret instead of making it public and clearly marking it as beta / experimental? The fact that you want feedback from only people you trust. > There is no benefit to the world in me just cloning Zoom > > There is no benefit in preventing you from using these API. Yes there is. If the APIs are not ready, then developers cannot rely on them. Making them available has costs, regardless of how they are labeled. > What if you clone Zoom, with a better business model and/or making it open source? You can do that just as well once the APIs are public. > Or if you create a product that finds an unforeseen application to these new APIs? Your feedback is valuable too. It’s possible that there is some unforeseen feedback from a random person that is valuable, but given that most people have no incentive to give good feedback, most of the feedback will likely be garbage. This is why they partner with people who have proven experience.
    - m00x 5y ago
      > There is no benefit to the world in me just cloning Zoom, so access to a small feature refinement makes no difference. The issue is that Apple can pick and choose whoever they want which is anti-competitive. It's certainly not the first time they've done this, but it's a shitty business tactic. Everyone should have the same opportunities.
      - zepto 5y ago
        > The issue is that Apple can pick and choose whoever they want which is anti-competitive. No it isn’t. They work with whoever the market leaders are. > It's certainly not the first time they've done this, You say this as if they’ve been caught doing something wrong. You may wish to create that impression, but it’s a silly one. They openly talk about doing this on stage every year. > but it's a shitty business tactic. It’s not a business tactic. It’s normal software development methodology. > Everyone should have the same opportunities. On one level, everyone does - any business can partner with any other business who chooses to work together to create APIs. On another level, the statement is a meaningless platitude. It is obvious for example that not all developers can have a 10 minute phone call with Craig Federighi because there are millions of developers. It would equally be absurd to ban Craig Federighi from talking to developers. Similarly it would be absurd to ban Apple from allowing 3rd parties to work with them to test new APIs. In order to consider these questions in a meaningful way, slogans are not helpful - instead we have to look at what the realities look like.
- supermatt 5y ago
  That’s not treating all developers equally, in contrast to Tim Cooks statement.
  - villgax 5y ago
    Precisely what I also wanted to say. This is not the level playing field, in addition to selective pricing structures being doled out to subscription based services
latexr 5y ago
Quick reminder that Zoom has a history of bad practices[1] and that Apple themselves pushed a macOS update to undo some of their shenanigans[2]. [1]: https://gist.github.com/dacruz21/dd2480f195f5b48a9ab7af8b41c21404 https://gist.github.com/dacruz21/dd2480f195f5b48a9ab7af8b41c... [2]: https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/10/zoom-apple-macos-update/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/10/zoom-apple-macos-update/
interestica 5y ago
Reminders: On the web, if you click "launch" 3x and kill the pop-up, Zoom will then present a link for its web-based client. And https://meet.jit.si/ https://meet.jit.si/ has been a great open source alternative that you can roll out on your own server if desired.
rahimnathwani 5y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27083806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27083806

48 points by bleair 5y ago

It’s completely normal in software development to work with a limited set of partners to develop and test APIs before they are made available publicly. The reasons for this are fairly obvious, and Apple has never made it a secret that they do so. They talk about it openly at WWDC. The idea that APIs should always be available to either nobody or everybody simply ignores the reality of how software is built.

splatzone 5y ago
It may be the reality, do you think it’s fair on competing apps that Zoom gets an edge?
- zepto 5y ago
  It’s a question that continues the misunderstanding. Zoom gets to be a partner in this because they had an ‘edge’ already in terms of having good product market fit and a huge customer base. That’s what makes them a good parter to help develop the api. I could today create a simple video chat app, but it would be silly for Apple to make me a partner in their development process because I know nothing about the users of video chat and have no customers. There is no benefit to the world in me just cloning Zoom, so access to a small feature refinement makes no difference. Generally being one of the best at what you do gives you an edge because people value your experience and want to work with you. That is fair.
  - jraph 5y ago
    If you develop APIs that requires feedback and testing, what forces you to keep it secret instead of making it public and clearly marking it as beta / experimental? > There is no benefit to the world in me just cloning Zoom There is no benefit in preventing you from using these API. What if you clone Zoom, with a better business model and/or making it open source? Or if you create a product that finds an unforeseen application to these new APIs? Your feedback is valuable too.
    - zepto 5y ago
      > If you develop APIs that requires feedback and testing, what forces you to keep it secret instead of making it public and clearly marking it as beta / experimental? The fact that you want feedback from only people you trust. > There is no benefit to the world in me just cloning Zoom > > There is no benefit in preventing you from using these API. Yes there is. If the APIs are not ready, then developers cannot rely on them. Making them available has costs, regardless of how they are labeled. > What if you clone Zoom, with a better business model and/or making it open source? You can do that just as well once the APIs are public. > Or if you create a product that finds an unforeseen application to these new APIs? Your feedback is valuable too. It’s possible that there is some unforeseen feedback from a random person that is valuable, but given that most people have no incentive to give good feedback, most of the feedback will likely be garbage. This is why they partner with people who have proven experience.
  - m00x 5y ago
    > There is no benefit to the world in me just cloning Zoom, so access to a small feature refinement makes no difference. The issue is that Apple can pick and choose whoever they want which is anti-competitive. It's certainly not the first time they've done this, but it's a shitty business tactic. Everyone should have the same opportunities.
    - zepto 5y ago
      > The issue is that Apple can pick and choose whoever they want which is anti-competitive. No it isn’t. They work with whoever the market leaders are. > It's certainly not the first time they've done this, You say this as if they’ve been caught doing something wrong. You may wish to create that impression, but it’s a silly one. They openly talk about doing this on stage every year. > but it's a shitty business tactic. It’s not a business tactic. It’s normal software development methodology. > Everyone should have the same opportunities. On one level, everyone does - any business can partner with any other business who chooses to work together to create APIs. On another level, the statement is a meaningless platitude. It is obvious for example that not all developers can have a 10 minute phone call with Craig Federighi because there are millions of developers. It would equally be absurd to ban Craig Federighi from talking to developers. Similarly it would be absurd to ban Apple from allowing 3rd parties to work with them to test new APIs. In order to consider these questions in a meaningful way, slogans are not helpful - instead we have to look at what the realities look like.
supermatt 5y ago
That’s not treating all developers equally, in contrast to Tim Cooks statement.
- villgax 5y ago
  Precisely what I also wanted to say. This is not the level playing field, in addition to selective pricing structures being doled out to subscription based services

latexr 5y ago

Quick reminder that Zoom has a history of bad practices[1] and that Apple themselves pushed a macOS update to undo some of their shenanigans[2]. [1]: https://gist.github.com/dacruz21/dd2480f195f5b48a9ab7af8b41c21404 https://gist.github.com/dacruz21/dd2480f195f5b48a9ab7af8b41c... [2]: https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/10/zoom-apple-macos-update/ https://9to5mac.com/2019/07/10/zoom-apple-macos-update/

interestica 5y ago

Reminders: On the web, if you click "launch" 3x and kill the pop-up, Zoom will then present a link for its web-based client. And https://meet.jit.si/ https://meet.jit.si/ has been a great open source alternative that you can roll out on your own server if desired.

rahimnathwani 5y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27083806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27083806