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When you teach basic math, do you start with introducing the student to proof theory? In any field, the natural process is to relearn how to do things. I certai

When you teach basic math, do you start with introducing the student to proof theory? In any field, the natural process is to relearn how to do things. I certainly have had to change how I program, how I document, etc., and I think I am a better programmer because of learning to adapt to those things when I've found a better solution. LPTHW looks like a great book and may be a much more thorough introduction to Python for someone who is committed to learning the language; these videos are not really focused on that demographic. LPTHW is great if you're already a programmer or go in knowing you really want to learn how to program; hopefully where these videos can succeed is bringing in new people who are mildly interested and getting them started while showing them how fascinating programming can be. One day, hopefully Khan Academy will have enough videos and interactive exercises that a programming education will be as thorough as LPTHW, but that doesn't happen overnight.

Locke1689 15y ago
He's not simplifying things by putting the filename at the top of the file: he's just wrong. This is stuff which is clearly learned because people who don't know how to program correctly pass on little pieces of code like secret incantations without really thinking about them. I'm not saying that adding extraneous comments at the top of your file is the end of the world: I'm saying that Sal violated basic programming practice in one of the simplest 10 line programs that can be written. This is a canary. What makes good teachers so good is that they know their field so well that they can use all of their gathered knowledge to help clarify and guide people who don't know any better. It doesn't matter how good a teacher you are if you really don't know what you're teaching.
- rubergly 15y ago
  When I referred to simplification, it was more in reference to the comment about not using PyDoc than to the filename issue. Regarding the filename issue, I think you are blowing it completely out of proportion. I don't personally believe in it, but it's definitely a style thing, and it's definitely not something that only people who don't know how to program do.
- statictype 15y ago
  Sorry, but this comes off as typical nerd-rage, nitpicking about things that don't matter. This video isn't trying to make people into professional developers any more than his videos on algebra are trying to teach research-oriented mathematics.
  - Tiomaidh 15y ago
    He's not upset about the filename-comment per se, he's worried that it's an early warning--it indicates that Khan isn't very experienced with software development (which, in my opinion, is a valid conclusion), and that that'll cause more serious problems in the future.
    - salemh 15y ago
      Like what? (Seriously; more people getting interested in programming, candidates after Khan's video's somehow "slipping through" the interview process for a Jr position? Or, (where I can see your point), setting up bad practices?))
    - statictype 15y ago
      Yes, its obvious that he hasn't written a lot of production code. Again, so what?. That's not in any way an early warning that he isn't capable of teaching basic programming skills to others.
      - rimmjob 15y ago
        exactly. if the viewers of these videos intend to become serious software developers then they can just correct whatever wrong shit they learn. if they don't care about best practices then it is still better that they know how to do the basics to automate mundane tasks then not know any at all.
    - wisty 15y ago
      Remember when people started slamming him for oversimplifying history, or getting other minor facts wrong on non-programming subjects? Everyone on HN just said "it's free, it's interesting, and who cares as long as students get the basic idea?" Now that he's making minor mistakes on programming, HNers are upset he's not a software engineering expert.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- Adam503 15y ago
  More proof that no good deed goes unpunished. Will you be putting up your own website of free programming tutorial videos done the way you think they ought to be done? Will you offer to volunteer your time to Khan Academy.org to produce programming videos the way you think they should be done? Yeah... that's what I though.
  - Locke1689 15y ago
    First, your argument is a logical fallacy. There's no reason why I need to give a better solution in order to point out that an existing one is not good enough. Second, I feel no need to replicate LPTHW.
- ern 15y ago
  I'm saying that Sal violated basic programming practice in one of the simplest 10 line programs that can be written. This is a canary. I didn't think that the video (now dead) was particularly good, but I think that this is a bit of an overreaction. LPTHW doesn't seem to use PyDoc comments either. Would I be upset if he used C# and put a // comment at the top of a method, instead of a /// comment? Probably. Would I regard it as evidence that he wouldn't be able to teach programming? No. He's not simplifying things by putting the filename at the top of the file: he's just wrong Maybe this is a Python thing, but there's a semi-official, but fairly popular tool from Microsoft called StyleCop that forces C# code to have a comment with the filename at the top. Bottom line: putting a filename at the top is not regarded universally as a bad practice, even among professional programmers.
ern 15y ago
When you teach basic math, do you start with introducing the student to proof theory I know that it isn't your main point, but I when Sal inevitably moved to CS, I was hoping he would start with theoretical CS first. He seems strongest on mathy topics, and I think his style of teaching could be very useful in that area.
Goladus 15y ago
When you teach basic math, do you start with introducing the student to proof theory? In any field, the natural process is to relearn how to do things. I wonder, has it ever been tried? (starting with proof theory)

Locke1689 15y ago

He's not simplifying things by putting the filename at the top of the file: he's just wrong. This is stuff which is clearly learned because people who don't know how to program correctly pass on little pieces of code like secret incantations without really thinking about them. I'm not saying that adding extraneous comments at the top of your file is the end of the world: I'm saying that Sal violated basic programming practice in one of the simplest 10 line programs that can be written. This is a canary. What makes good teachers so good is that they know their field so well that they can use all of their gathered knowledge to help clarify and guide people who don't know any better. It doesn't matter how good a teacher you are if you really don't know what you're teaching.

rubergly 15y ago
When I referred to simplification, it was more in reference to the comment about not using PyDoc than to the filename issue. Regarding the filename issue, I think you are blowing it completely out of proportion. I don't personally believe in it, but it's definitely a style thing, and it's definitely not something that only people who don't know how to program do.
statictype 15y ago
Sorry, but this comes off as typical nerd-rage, nitpicking about things that don't matter. This video isn't trying to make people into professional developers any more than his videos on algebra are trying to teach research-oriented mathematics.
- Tiomaidh 15y ago
  He's not upset about the filename-comment per se, he's worried that it's an early warning--it indicates that Khan isn't very experienced with software development (which, in my opinion, is a valid conclusion), and that that'll cause more serious problems in the future.
  - salemh 15y ago
    Like what? (Seriously; more people getting interested in programming, candidates after Khan's video's somehow "slipping through" the interview process for a Jr position? Or, (where I can see your point), setting up bad practices?))
  - statictype 15y ago
    Yes, its obvious that he hasn't written a lot of production code. Again, so what?. That's not in any way an early warning that he isn't capable of teaching basic programming skills to others.
    - rimmjob 15y ago
      exactly. if the viewers of these videos intend to become serious software developers then they can just correct whatever wrong shit they learn. if they don't care about best practices then it is still better that they know how to do the basics to automate mundane tasks then not know any at all.
  - wisty 15y ago
    Remember when people started slamming him for oversimplifying history, or getting other minor facts wrong on non-programming subjects? Everyone on HN just said "it's free, it's interesting, and who cares as long as students get the basic idea?" Now that he's making minor mistakes on programming, HNers are upset he's not a software engineering expert.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Adam503 15y ago
More proof that no good deed goes unpunished. Will you be putting up your own website of free programming tutorial videos done the way you think they ought to be done? Will you offer to volunteer your time to Khan Academy.org to produce programming videos the way you think they should be done? Yeah... that's what I though.
- Locke1689 15y ago
  First, your argument is a logical fallacy. There's no reason why I need to give a better solution in order to point out that an existing one is not good enough. Second, I feel no need to replicate LPTHW.
ern 15y ago
I'm saying that Sal violated basic programming practice in one of the simplest 10 line programs that can be written. This is a canary. I didn't think that the video (now dead) was particularly good, but I think that this is a bit of an overreaction. LPTHW doesn't seem to use PyDoc comments either. Would I be upset if he used C# and put a // comment at the top of a method, instead of a /// comment? Probably. Would I regard it as evidence that he wouldn't be able to teach programming? No. He's not simplifying things by putting the filename at the top of the file: he's just wrong Maybe this is a Python thing, but there's a semi-official, but fairly popular tool from Microsoft called StyleCop that forces C# code to have a comment with the filename at the top. Bottom line: putting a filename at the top is not regarded universally as a bad practice, even among professional programmers.

ern 15y ago

When you teach basic math, do you start with introducing the student to proof theory I know that it isn't your main point, but I when Sal inevitably moved to CS, I was hoping he would start with theoretical CS first. He seems strongest on mathy topics, and I think his style of teaching could be very useful in that area.

Goladus 15y ago

When you teach basic math, do you start with introducing the student to proof theory? In any field, the natural process is to relearn how to do things. I wonder, has it ever been tried? (starting with proof theory)