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It's worth noting a difference here... With Tesla this car had supercharger access turned off and he could not get replacement parts to fix the car. By going

by mfer 5y ago

It's worth noting a difference here... With Tesla this car had supercharger access turned off and he could not get replacement parts to fix the car. By going ICE powered he can get the parts and is able to easily refuel it. I'm not saying ICE is better than electric. I'm trying to highlight availability, enablement, and control.

coding_unit_1 5y ago
You can’t generalise Tesla as representing all EVs. They’re the only ones who have this remote control of your car and restricted availability of parts. No other manufacturer does this. I agree it’s not a healthy model long-term, just hoping it stays niche with Tesla rather than other manufacturers joining in.
- ajross 5y ago
  Uh... literally every manufacturer does restricted availability of parts.
  - gamblor956 5y ago
    Uh... literally every manufacturer does restricted availability of parts. No, they literally do not. Automakers will generally sell replacement parts for any vehicles they currently sell to anyone willing to pay for them. In fact, they usually have dedicated sites just for buying replacement parts. https://www.toyota.com/owners/parts-service/parts https://www.toyota.com/owners/parts-service/parts https://parts.ford.com/en.html https://parts.ford.com/en.html https://estore.honda.com/ https://estore.honda.com/ In cases where the automaker won't sell replacement parts, that is because they don't make the part, but third parties do, and the part can be acquired from one or more third parties. (Note: in the case of GM and BMW, the below are third party retailers, but they also sell OEM parts, which GM and BMW do not appear to sell direct online.) https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/ https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/ https://www.getbmwparts.com/bmw-replacement-parts https://www.getbmwparts.com/bmw-replacement-parts
  - bri3d 5y ago
    Huh? The only parts restriction I've ever come across is VIN-locked special edition parts, to keep dealers from trying to build a side-business building their own special editions. Usually these are cosmetic (Land Cruiser wheels are a good example) and rather silly anyway. And, the restriction isn't "you can't get these parts," it's "you can only get these parts with a matching VIN." In contrast, Tesla regulate all structural and HV parts. Whether this is a bad idea or not I'm not quite sure (I think the argument that HV repair is more dangerous than gasoline vehicle repair absolutely has merit), but it's a key difference. Furthermore, while all manufacturers these days do lock down software to some degree, none do to the extent of Tesla. For example, on VW you need GeKo access for Component Protection removal, but it's $999/year and just requires a business entity. And, a few features are behind SWaP codes, but you can buy those SWaP features too, even as an independent shop. And of course, if you like you can RE the software or buy a reversed software tool suite like Abrites which will let you bypass these mechanisms without your car being remotely banned from certain functionalities.
- syshum 5y ago
  >>just hoping it stays niche with Tesla rather than other manufacturers joining in. No chance of that, while most of the others have not gone full Apple in their control like Tesla has Most of them (Gm, Ford, VW, etc ) have all signaled their desire to start down this path and many of them have removed anything not legally required to be in the ODBII spec into proprietary controls that require manufacturer authorization
NotSammyHagar 5y ago
Reduced opportunity for third parties to work on electric vehicles, especially Teslas, is a significant problem that needs to be addressed. It's an aspect of right to repair laws. There are some states that have laws that have basically forced some EV companies to release manuals. But lack of availability of parts also blocks third parties. If you think of superchargers as an almost proprietary service that is almost required for use of the car, then blocking the use of them in damaged and repaired Teslas seems problematic. If you had a "totaled" gm bolt, after it was repaired you could use third-party charging services.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mfer 5y ago
  There is no standard for super chargers. That means different companies can have different connections. If people want EVs to succeed they should push for interoperability across brands. So that it's as easy to charge you car as it is to fill up on gas, today.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    The SAE J1772 standard is good for 400kw, no?
    - mfer 5y ago
      I'm sorry I wasn't clear. There isn't a standard followed by everyone. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying it's not being commonly followed everywhere.
      - syshum 5y ago
        I cant resist.... https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
      - Symbiote 5y ago
        ICE vehicles can run on diesel, compressed natural gas (CNG), liquified natural gas (LNG), liquified petroleum gas (LPG), and several grades of gasoline. A standard needn't be used by 100% of vehicles to be useful. Also, in Europe Tesla uses standard connectors on their superchargers — other vehicles can be plugged in, but they won't charge.
ajross 5y ago
> With Tesla this car had supercharger access turned off and he could not get replacement parts to fix the car. This is a little disingenuous. It was a wreck, literally. It was a flooded car that the insurance had written off and sold as scrap. You'd never get manufacturer support for a BMW in the same circumstance either. Scrap is scrap. That you can buy a car body and do a cool hack isn't a moral lesson about the business model attached to the car the part was taken from.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  A BMW dealer built a 1970s R90S motorcycle from parts they ordered from the BMW catalog in 2013. I personally rebuilt a wrecked 1989 Honda motorcycle with all factory parts in 2010. Traditional automakers provide excellent support for any years even for niche vehicles that hardly anyone bought.
  - ajross 5y ago
    And you genuinely think you could do the same with a 2022 BMW i4 or Honda Clarity? More to the point: could you have build those same projects in the 70's/90's when those were new vehicles? I rather doubt it, too. Parts markets are real, but they take time to mature. I mean... where do you think the parts would even come from? Tesla's factories are at capacity building new vehicles (in the case of the model S and X, they're actually almost a year behind orders!). Who's going to make the stuff you'd expect to buy anyway?
    - jeffbee 5y ago
      Yes? I just punched up the front steering assembly for a 2020 Honda Clarity PHEV. All I need to do is click this button to have it shipped to me. Reasonable automakers make more parts than they need and ship them to warehouses worldwide to support their customer fleets. Here’s the whole battery pack assembly for my Honda. https://www.hondapartsonline.net/oem-parts/honda-pack-assembly-battery-1d1005wja10?c=Zz1lbGVjdHJpY2FsLWV4aGF1c3QtaGVhdGVyLWZ1ZWwmcz1iYXR0ZXJ5LXBhY2smbD0xJm49QXNzZW1ibGllcyBQYWdlJmE9aG9uZGEmbz1jbGFyaXR5Jnk9MjAyMCZ0PXBsdWctaW4taHlicmlkJmU9MS01bC1sNC1lbGVjdHJpYy1nYXM%3D https://www.hondapartsonline.net/oem-parts/honda-pack-assemb...
mooktakim 5y ago
This is true right now. Probably true for all the EV makers. Give the EV market 10/20 years to mature, and all this will be sorted out.

by mfer 5y ago

coding_unit_1 5y ago

You can’t generalise Tesla as representing all EVs. They’re the only ones who have this remote control of your car and restricted availability of parts. No other manufacturer does this. I agree it’s not a healthy model long-term, just hoping it stays niche with Tesla rather than other manufacturers joining in.

ajross 5y ago
Uh... literally every manufacturer does restricted availability of parts.
- gamblor956 5y ago
  Uh... literally every manufacturer does restricted availability of parts. No, they literally do not. Automakers will generally sell replacement parts for any vehicles they currently sell to anyone willing to pay for them. In fact, they usually have dedicated sites just for buying replacement parts. https://www.toyota.com/owners/parts-service/parts https://www.toyota.com/owners/parts-service/parts https://parts.ford.com/en.html https://parts.ford.com/en.html https://estore.honda.com/ https://estore.honda.com/ In cases where the automaker won't sell replacement parts, that is because they don't make the part, but third parties do, and the part can be acquired from one or more third parties. (Note: in the case of GM and BMW, the below are third party retailers, but they also sell OEM parts, which GM and BMW do not appear to sell direct online.) https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/ https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/ https://www.getbmwparts.com/bmw-replacement-parts https://www.getbmwparts.com/bmw-replacement-parts
- bri3d 5y ago
  Huh? The only parts restriction I've ever come across is VIN-locked special edition parts, to keep dealers from trying to build a side-business building their own special editions. Usually these are cosmetic (Land Cruiser wheels are a good example) and rather silly anyway. And, the restriction isn't "you can't get these parts," it's "you can only get these parts with a matching VIN." In contrast, Tesla regulate all structural and HV parts. Whether this is a bad idea or not I'm not quite sure (I think the argument that HV repair is more dangerous than gasoline vehicle repair absolutely has merit), but it's a key difference. Furthermore, while all manufacturers these days do lock down software to some degree, none do to the extent of Tesla. For example, on VW you need GeKo access for Component Protection removal, but it's $999/year and just requires a business entity. And, a few features are behind SWaP codes, but you can buy those SWaP features too, even as an independent shop. And of course, if you like you can RE the software or buy a reversed software tool suite like Abrites which will let you bypass these mechanisms without your car being remotely banned from certain functionalities.
syshum 5y ago
>>just hoping it stays niche with Tesla rather than other manufacturers joining in. No chance of that, while most of the others have not gone full Apple in their control like Tesla has Most of them (Gm, Ford, VW, etc ) have all signaled their desire to start down this path and many of them have removed anything not legally required to be in the ODBII spec into proprietary controls that require manufacturer authorization

NotSammyHagar 5y ago

Reduced opportunity for third parties to work on electric vehicles, especially Teslas, is a significant problem that needs to be addressed. It's an aspect of right to repair laws. There are some states that have laws that have basically forced some EV companies to release manuals. But lack of availability of parts also blocks third parties. If you think of superchargers as an almost proprietary service that is almost required for use of the car, then blocking the use of them in damaged and repaired Teslas seems problematic. If you had a "totaled" gm bolt, after it was repaired you could use third-party charging services.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mfer 5y ago
There is no standard for super chargers. That means different companies can have different connections. If people want EVs to succeed they should push for interoperability across brands. So that it's as easy to charge you car as it is to fill up on gas, today.
- kube-system 5y ago
  The SAE J1772 standard is good for 400kw, no?
  - mfer 5y ago
    I'm sorry I wasn't clear. There isn't a standard followed by everyone. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying it's not being commonly followed everywhere.
    - syshum 5y ago
      I cant resist.... https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      ICE vehicles can run on diesel, compressed natural gas (CNG), liquified natural gas (LNG), liquified petroleum gas (LPG), and several grades of gasoline. A standard needn't be used by 100% of vehicles to be useful. Also, in Europe Tesla uses standard connectors on their superchargers — other vehicles can be plugged in, but they won't charge.

ajross 5y ago

> With Tesla this car had supercharger access turned off and he could not get replacement parts to fix the car. This is a little disingenuous. It was a wreck, literally. It was a flooded car that the insurance had written off and sold as scrap. You'd never get manufacturer support for a BMW in the same circumstance either. Scrap is scrap. That you can buy a car body and do a cool hack isn't a moral lesson about the business model attached to the car the part was taken from.

jeffbee 5y ago
A BMW dealer built a 1970s R90S motorcycle from parts they ordered from the BMW catalog in 2013. I personally rebuilt a wrecked 1989 Honda motorcycle with all factory parts in 2010. Traditional automakers provide excellent support for any years even for niche vehicles that hardly anyone bought.
- ajross 5y ago
  And you genuinely think you could do the same with a 2022 BMW i4 or Honda Clarity? More to the point: could you have build those same projects in the 70's/90's when those were new vehicles? I rather doubt it, too. Parts markets are real, but they take time to mature. I mean... where do you think the parts would even come from? Tesla's factories are at capacity building new vehicles (in the case of the model S and X, they're actually almost a year behind orders!). Who's going to make the stuff you'd expect to buy anyway?
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    Yes? I just punched up the front steering assembly for a 2020 Honda Clarity PHEV. All I need to do is click this button to have it shipped to me. Reasonable automakers make more parts than they need and ship them to warehouses worldwide to support their customer fleets. Here’s the whole battery pack assembly for my Honda. https://www.hondapartsonline.net/oem-parts/honda-pack-assembly-battery-1d1005wja10?c=Zz1lbGVjdHJpY2FsLWV4aGF1c3QtaGVhdGVyLWZ1ZWwmcz1iYXR0ZXJ5LXBhY2smbD0xJm49QXNzZW1ibGllcyBQYWdlJmE9aG9uZGEmbz1jbGFyaXR5Jnk9MjAyMCZ0PXBsdWctaW4taHlicmlkJmU9MS01bC1sNC1lbGVjdHJpYy1nYXM%3D https://www.hondapartsonline.net/oem-parts/honda-pack-assemb...

mooktakim 5y ago

This is true right now. Probably true for all the EV makers. Give the EV market 10/20 years to mature, and all this will be sorted out.