5 ms·

You realize that $11k has to pay their taxes, healthcare, and retirement state-side right? It’s peanuts.

jrochkind1 5y ago
I think it's somewhere in between. Taxes, healthcare, and retirement are big in the US. And keep in mind that self-employment taxes (operative here) are more than the taxes taken out as an employee. But $11K/month * 12 == $132K. To roughy back-of-napkin equalize for higher self-employment taxes, let's say that's equivalent to $100K salary if you were an ordinary employee. (I just made that up, I don't know how accurate it is). $100K is still 84th percentile income for US, you are making more than 84% of people in the US. It's not "peanuts" or "subsistence". ($132K is 91st percentile income).
- danielsju6 5y ago
  Back of the napkin to me: say $25.5k pre-tax retirement / college savings for child, 30% federal, 15% state, $3200/mn to rent an apartment in a mid sized city in the US, $400 month for car and gas, $1k for food, $1k for healthcare, $160 for utilities, leaves them with $288/mn. Not enough to ever own a home, build wealth, travel; better hope they have a spouse that is employed & has employer subsidized healthcare.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    And yet, regardless, it's still more than 85% of incomes in the USA. That seems striking. Is 85% of the USA living on subsistence peanuts, not even enough to survive? Possibly.
    - danielsju6 5y ago
      Not saving for retirement and one surprise bill from insolvency is the status quo. AMERICA!!!!
bspammer 5y ago
The median salary in the US is a quarter of that. It’s not luxury yacht money, but calling it “peanuts” is ridiculous.
- danielsju6 5y ago
  Most folk in the US are on poverty wages, one surprise bill away from bankruptcy or homelessness; we shouldn’t expect OSS maintainers to fall on the sword and rely on inter generational wealth or live in poverty when their colleagues, using their software, at big companies are making (what used to be considered) middle class wages.
R0b0t1 5y ago
$11k is not peanuts by any means.
- danielsju6 5y ago
  Are you a software engineer in the US? That’s like green out of a boot-camp rate, not even close to senior, let alone staff, principle, or fellow.
  - R0b0t1 5y ago
    I am a SWE with ~10yr experience (and no degree) and can't seem to find any of these jobs. For most of the country this is far above average. Where should I be looking for these jobs? I interview well, the problem is always getting into an interview. Most recent was an Erlang/C++ position on the east coast but they only want to offer $90k. The apparently pulled my resume only because of my Erlang experience.
    - danielsju6 5y ago
      Everywhere… IDK? FWIW most of my career has been remote in northern New England, working with companies in Boston or SF. Seriously, I’ve only received a single (non-founder) offer below 6 figures since I dropped out of college, at a non-tech company. I walked out cold when it got to negotiations because they were so far off base. A bit rude, yes, but I was genuinely insulted. It was three times lower than the next lowest offer I have received at that point. I’ve been trying hard to just be an IC too ever since I burnt out on my own startup. Avoiding management hasn’t been hard with Ruby/JavaScript and a bit of Swift/Kotlin exp. I’ve only recently started entertaining eng.manager/director conversations and been clear that would take $600k+ to get me back into that world, and leading with number has not been a show stopper in my convos with FAANG companies.
    - danielsju6 5y ago
      I suggest https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/ as a starting point in setting your expectations. Make friends with a recruiter, helps to see the world from their perspective & learn what the bands are / who’s hiring.

I think it's somewhere in between. Taxes, healthcare, and retirement are big in the US. And keep in mind that self-employment taxes (operative here) are more than the taxes taken out as an employee. But $11K/month * 12 == $132K. To roughy back-of-napkin equalize for higher self-employment taxes, let's say that's equivalent to $100K salary if you were an ordinary employee. (I just made that up, I don't know how accurate it is). $100K is still 84th percentile income for US, you are making more than 84% of people in the US. It's not "peanuts" or "subsistence". ($132K is 91st percentile income).

danielsju6 5y ago
Back of the napkin to me: say $25.5k pre-tax retirement / college savings for child, 30% federal, 15% state, $3200/mn to rent an apartment in a mid sized city in the US, $400 month for car and gas, $1k for food, $1k for healthcare, $160 for utilities, leaves them with $288/mn. Not enough to ever own a home, build wealth, travel; better hope they have a spouse that is employed & has employer subsidized healthcare.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  And yet, regardless, it's still more than 85% of incomes in the USA. That seems striking. Is 85% of the USA living on subsistence peanuts, not even enough to survive? Possibly.
  - danielsju6 5y ago
    Not saving for retirement and one surprise bill from insolvency is the status quo. AMERICA!!!!

bspammer 5y ago

The median salary in the US is a quarter of that. It’s not luxury yacht money, but calling it “peanuts” is ridiculous.

danielsju6 5y ago
Most folk in the US are on poverty wages, one surprise bill away from bankruptcy or homelessness; we shouldn’t expect OSS maintainers to fall on the sword and rely on inter generational wealth or live in poverty when their colleagues, using their software, at big companies are making (what used to be considered) middle class wages.

R0b0t1 5y ago

$11k is not peanuts by any means.

danielsju6 5y ago
Are you a software engineer in the US? That’s like green out of a boot-camp rate, not even close to senior, let alone staff, principle, or fellow.
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  I am a SWE with ~10yr experience (and no degree) and can't seem to find any of these jobs. For most of the country this is far above average. Where should I be looking for these jobs? I interview well, the problem is always getting into an interview. Most recent was an Erlang/C++ position on the east coast but they only want to offer $90k. The apparently pulled my resume only because of my Erlang experience.
  - danielsju6 5y ago
    Everywhere… IDK? FWIW most of my career has been remote in northern New England, working with companies in Boston or SF. Seriously, I’ve only received a single (non-founder) offer below 6 figures since I dropped out of college, at a non-tech company. I walked out cold when it got to negotiations because they were so far off base. A bit rude, yes, but I was genuinely insulted. It was three times lower than the next lowest offer I have received at that point. I’ve been trying hard to just be an IC too ever since I burnt out on my own startup. Avoiding management hasn’t been hard with Ruby/JavaScript and a bit of Swift/Kotlin exp. I’ve only recently started entertaining eng.manager/director conversations and been clear that would take $600k+ to get me back into that world, and leading with number has not been a show stopper in my convos with FAANG companies.
  - danielsju6 5y ago
    I suggest https://www.levels.fyi/ https://www.levels.fyi/ as a starting point in setting your expectations. Make friends with a recruiter, helps to see the world from their perspective & learn what the bands are / who’s hiring.