8 ms·

Amygdala hijack

61 points by clockworksoul 5y ago

CountDrewku 5y ago
Isn't this just a panic attack?
- WhompingWindows 5y ago
  Reading the article, no it isn't. Daniel Goleman, who also invented the term "Emotional intelligence", states you can have positive amygdala hijacks: let's say you're uproariously laughing out of control, that'd be a hijack that isn't panic related. On the negative valenced side, it's not just a panic attack. It's more related to fight-or-flight than anxiety, though I see cases where amygdala hijack is overlapping with a panic attack.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    I've never seen fight of flight used with anything but anxiety since it's a fear response. Out of control laughter being included in that makes no sense. Explain how out of control laughter elicits a fight reflex or a run reflex? Fight or flight is explicitly a survival mechanism. Maybe a full on panic attack since that generally refers to something that isn't actually dangerous isn't the right word but anxiety/fear certainly is. PA's ARE fight/flight by the way.
- Traubenfuchs 5y ago
  No: Is jumping up and away feom the table because you see a spider on it a panic attack?
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    It's the same initial response yes. They're both anxiety/fear responses. Normally you realize the spider doesn't actually cause you an danger so it doesn't evolve into full fight/flight or panic. The spider respone may be very short-lived but it is still flight and your body/amygdala responded so fast you didn't have the chance to think about jumping away and worked liked the survival mechanism it is (if you smash it then fight..) More generally just calling it anxiety would be fine.
- User23 5y ago
  No. As an example, if you've ever experienced an overwhelming urge to downvote a comment on HN despite the fact that it conforms to the site guidelines, but it makes you feel intellectually threatened, then you’ve experienced this phenomenon.
  - frogpelt 5y ago
    I’m gonna have to call this a bad example. I’m pretty sure the neocortex is heavily involved when you’re reading comments on Hacker News.
    - CountDrewku 5y ago
      It's a terrible example. Most here don't seem to understand what actual fight/flight is and what this person has coined "amygdala hijacking". It wouldn't work as a survival mechanism at all if they had the ability to think their decision through. In a true fight/flight scenario your amygdala responds in such a quick way that you really don't have time to override it. This IS a panic attack, except that panic attacks are usually used in reference to something that's not a real imminent danger. Regardless, the body response is the same with adrenaline, heightened sense etc..
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - carapace 5y ago
    Not only is this a valid point in and of itself, but it bring up a fascinating (IMO) aspect of the human mind: just how abstract the "stimuli" can be that we respond to, eh? It's arguably a neurological "mis-wire" that it's even possible to be intellectually threatened, eh? Snakes, yes, but furious green ideas[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_fu...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - 5y ago
carapace 5y ago
First, this is a real thing that your wetware does, and it behooves you to learn about it and prepare for it. Second, although during the process the "emotional brain [amygdala] activity processes information milliseconds earlier than the rational brain, so in case of a match, the amygdala acts before any possible direction from the neocortex can be received", you can during non-emergency time reprogram the "immediate action plan" that the amygdala will enact during non-emergency time. - - - - E.g.: "adrenaline re-imprinting" is a thing. There are self-defense courses that literally reprogram your brain to have a more useful response! We often talk about "fight or flight" and omit the third typical response: "freeze". The formula is "fight or flight or freeze". In an adrenaline re-imprinting self-defense course you learn to change the response to an organized, coherent defensive manouver. It's so effective that people (attackers) are literally intimidated at a deep organic level. One's body knows that even a small woman in the throes of an adrenaline rush can kill with a single blow, just like in the movies, and no one sane will persist. Story time. I took one of these courses and it worked: I was about to be set upon by three young thugs and the defensive posture and response triggered and, sure enough, they halted, taken aback, and were thereafter wary of me. We talked for a bit and at one point I made a motion with my arm and the boys fell back and raised their arms to guard themselves. I tell you they were frightened of me, after seeing a full-on coherent adrenaline response! A few minutes later a police car rolled up to talk to them, I wasn't the first person they messed with that day, and I left. Anyhow, yes, amygdala goes first if it thinks it needs to, but it is your job to equip your amygdala with good programs for those emergencies. Same principle as buying a fire extinguisher, eh? Safety first and all that?
- ryanianian 5y ago
  > There are self-defense courses that literally reprogram your brain to have a more useful response! Is this a part of a martial art? What is the term for such training?
  - bombcar 5y ago
    This is part of most (if not all martial arts) and other various "fighting" courses - it's part of the reason for what appears to be brainless repetition of certain moves, etc.
_nothing 5y ago
This is the part of psychology I don't like. What really gets hijacked here is a basic understanding of neuroscience and neuroanatomy, used to support otherwise unsubstantiated theories of what is presented as a neurological phenomenon. Look at the sources of this article: The UMass Family Business Center, Sport and Recreation New Zealand, the CEO of True North Leadership. None of them are scientific, none of them present any evidence themselves, all of them are regurgitations of the original source: Daniel Goleman and his book. If Goleman presents any actual scientific evidence of this phenomenon in his book, none of it is listed in that article. It's just more pop psychology, more "Your right brain is responsible for creativity so you should focus on doing things with your left hand", "the limbic system is the primitive reptile brain", and other BS like that. We literally have no idea what most brain structures actually do, just that they're involved in various processes, so to make the definitive claim that "this is how these processes work" is disingenuous at best. /rant
SZJX 5y ago
I find the summary quite reasonable. The following: > Joseph E. LeDoux was positive about the possibility of learning to control the amygdala's hair-trigger role in emotional outbursts. "Once your emotional system learns something, it seems you never let it go. What therapy does is teach you how to control it—it teaches your neocortex how to inhibit your amygdala. The propensity to act is suppressed, while your basic emotion about it remains in a subdued form."[11] also makes a lot of sense to me. It reminds me of the highest-rated visual novel of all time, Muv-Luv Alternative, which really retrains your brain so that you know to control your emotions and act responsibly and calmly even under the most adversarial and unexpected circumstances. It is the only piece of literally life-changing art that I've ever come across and I recommend everybody to read it. https://vndb.org/v92 https://vndb.org/v92

Amygdala hijack

61 points by clockworksoul 5y ago

CountDrewku 5y ago

Isn't this just a panic attack?

WhompingWindows 5y ago
Reading the article, no it isn't. Daniel Goleman, who also invented the term "Emotional intelligence", states you can have positive amygdala hijacks: let's say you're uproariously laughing out of control, that'd be a hijack that isn't panic related. On the negative valenced side, it's not just a panic attack. It's more related to fight-or-flight than anxiety, though I see cases where amygdala hijack is overlapping with a panic attack.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  I've never seen fight of flight used with anything but anxiety since it's a fear response. Out of control laughter being included in that makes no sense. Explain how out of control laughter elicits a fight reflex or a run reflex? Fight or flight is explicitly a survival mechanism. Maybe a full on panic attack since that generally refers to something that isn't actually dangerous isn't the right word but anxiety/fear certainly is. PA's ARE fight/flight by the way.
Traubenfuchs 5y ago
No: Is jumping up and away feom the table because you see a spider on it a panic attack?
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  It's the same initial response yes. They're both anxiety/fear responses. Normally you realize the spider doesn't actually cause you an danger so it doesn't evolve into full fight/flight or panic. The spider respone may be very short-lived but it is still flight and your body/amygdala responded so fast you didn't have the chance to think about jumping away and worked liked the survival mechanism it is (if you smash it then fight..) More generally just calling it anxiety would be fine.
User23 5y ago
No. As an example, if you've ever experienced an overwhelming urge to downvote a comment on HN despite the fact that it conforms to the site guidelines, but it makes you feel intellectually threatened, then you’ve experienced this phenomenon.
- frogpelt 5y ago
  I’m gonna have to call this a bad example. I’m pretty sure the neocortex is heavily involved when you’re reading comments on Hacker News.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    It's a terrible example. Most here don't seem to understand what actual fight/flight is and what this person has coined "amygdala hijacking". It wouldn't work as a survival mechanism at all if they had the ability to think their decision through. In a true fight/flight scenario your amygdala responds in such a quick way that you really don't have time to override it. This IS a panic attack, except that panic attacks are usually used in reference to something that's not a real imminent danger. Regardless, the body response is the same with adrenaline, heightened sense etc..
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- carapace 5y ago
  Not only is this a valid point in and of itself, but it bring up a fascinating (IMO) aspect of the human mind: just how abstract the "stimuli" can be that we respond to, eh? It's arguably a neurological "mis-wire" that it's even possible to be intellectually threatened, eh? Snakes, yes, but furious green ideas[1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_fu...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- 5y ago

carapace 5y ago

First, this is a real thing that your wetware does, and it behooves you to learn about it and prepare for it. Second, although during the process the "emotional brain [amygdala] activity processes information milliseconds earlier than the rational brain, so in case of a match, the amygdala acts before any possible direction from the neocortex can be received", you can during non-emergency time reprogram the "immediate action plan" that the amygdala will enact during non-emergency time. - - - - E.g.: "adrenaline re-imprinting" is a thing. There are self-defense courses that literally reprogram your brain to have a more useful response! We often talk about "fight or flight" and omit the third typical response: "freeze". The formula is "fight or flight or freeze". In an adrenaline re-imprinting self-defense course you learn to change the response to an organized, coherent defensive manouver. It's so effective that people (attackers) are literally intimidated at a deep organic level. One's body knows that even a small woman in the throes of an adrenaline rush can kill with a single blow, just like in the movies, and no one sane will persist. Story time. I took one of these courses and it worked: I was about to be set upon by three young thugs and the defensive posture and response triggered and, sure enough, they halted, taken aback, and were thereafter wary of me. We talked for a bit and at one point I made a motion with my arm and the boys fell back and raised their arms to guard themselves. I tell you they were frightened of me, after seeing a full-on coherent adrenaline response! A few minutes later a police car rolled up to talk to them, I wasn't the first person they messed with that day, and I left. Anyhow, yes, amygdala goes first if it thinks it needs to, but it is your job to equip your amygdala with good programs for those emergencies. Same principle as buying a fire extinguisher, eh? Safety first and all that?

ryanianian 5y ago
> There are self-defense courses that literally reprogram your brain to have a more useful response! Is this a part of a martial art? What is the term for such training?
- bombcar 5y ago
  This is part of most (if not all martial arts) and other various "fighting" courses - it's part of the reason for what appears to be brainless repetition of certain moves, etc.

_nothing 5y ago

This is the part of psychology I don't like. What really gets hijacked here is a basic understanding of neuroscience and neuroanatomy, used to support otherwise unsubstantiated theories of what is presented as a neurological phenomenon. Look at the sources of this article: The UMass Family Business Center, Sport and Recreation New Zealand, the CEO of True North Leadership. None of them are scientific, none of them present any evidence themselves, all of them are regurgitations of the original source: Daniel Goleman and his book. If Goleman presents any actual scientific evidence of this phenomenon in his book, none of it is listed in that article. It's just more pop psychology, more "Your right brain is responsible for creativity so you should focus on doing things with your left hand", "the limbic system is the primitive reptile brain", and other BS like that. We literally have no idea what most brain structures actually do, just that they're involved in various processes, so to make the definitive claim that "this is how these processes work" is disingenuous at best. /rant

SZJX 5y ago

I find the summary quite reasonable. The following: > Joseph E. LeDoux was positive about the possibility of learning to control the amygdala's hair-trigger role in emotional outbursts. "Once your emotional system learns something, it seems you never let it go. What therapy does is teach you how to control it—it teaches your neocortex how to inhibit your amygdala. The propensity to act is suppressed, while your basic emotion about it remains in a subdued form."[11] also makes a lot of sense to me. It reminds me of the highest-rated visual novel of all time, Muv-Luv Alternative, which really retrains your brain so that you know to control your emotions and act responsibly and calmly even under the most adversarial and unexpected circumstances. It is the only piece of literally life-changing art that I've ever come across and I recommend everybody to read it. https://vndb.org/v92 https://vndb.org/v92