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> This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken This blog post for me is evidence that we can make crowdfunded o

> This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken This blog post for me is evidence that we can make crowdfunded open source work, as long as the people receiving the money know how to effectively use it. The team handling the economy of Babel right now, does not, hence Babel is not sustainable. But, if you'd make the salaries a bit more realistic, Babel would have money over each year. But that's based on them not giving themselves one of the highest salary in the world. Let's see what they'll do. > Very competent people are expected to write widely used software for a salary that basically merely guarantees subsistence. "merely guarantees subsistence", what the hell? Maybe if you live in SF, but any other place in the world, this kind of salary is not even what seniors pull in yearly. My own anecdote: > Not only a decent living, but that's a very good salary in most places in the world. As an anecdote, I've always worked in private sector IT (as a developer and manager), have around 20 years of experience and worked in both small and big enterprises and startups, and I've never had that high salary. If you'd offer me that for working on open source full-time, I'd be surprised. My expectation would be that there is a ton of people willing to work for much less, so why Babel had to go with that person? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27116591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27116591

ZephyrBlu 6y ago
If the people who are working on these projects are talented and can command high salaries, $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut. > My expectation would be that there is a ton of people willing to work for much less, so why Babel had to go with that person? Are all those people capable of managing Babel? I think the real question is: do you need top talent for important open source projects, or are average developers fine?
- capableweb 6y ago
  You somehow seem to think that amount someone earns is somehow related to how good they are. > $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut. Yes, sure, in Silicon Valley anything is possible but for the 99% rest of the world, 11K USD per month is ridiculously high and even people with decades of experience won't collect that unless there is a specific situation. It's definitely not normal outside of Silicon Valley companies. > Are all those people capable of managing Babel? Yes, I know of at least 10 JS developers with decades of experience who could handle maintaining Babel if it was up to them, and they don't earn close to 11K USD per month today. I'm sure they'd be happy to work on Open Source and effectively earning more, but many be happy just working on Open Source full time.
  - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
    I think there is a correlation between income and skill. More specifically, I think it's likely that highly skilled people have higher than average incomes. > It's definitely not normal outside of Silicon Valley companies How many companies do you class as SV companies? It seems like in the US in general there are salaries at that level and higher, not just SV. I have also seen people talk about salaries in Europe at that level, though I suspect they are rarer than in the US.
  - danielsju6 6y ago
    You realize that $11k has to pay their taxes, healthcare, and retirement state-side right? It’s peanuts.
    - jrochkind1 6y ago
      I think it's somewhere in between. Taxes, healthcare, and retirement are big in the US. And keep in mind that self-employment taxes (operative here) are more than the taxes taken out as an employee. But $11K/month * 12 == $132K. To roughy back-of-napkin equalize for higher self-employment taxes, let's say that's equivalent to $100K salary if you were an ordinary employee. (I just made that up, I don't know how accurate it is). $100K is still 84th percentile income for US, you are making more than 84% of people in the US. It's not "peanuts" or "subsistence". ($132K is 91st percentile income).
      - danielsju6 6y ago
        Back of the napkin to me: say $25.5k pre-tax retirement / college savings for child, 30% federal, 15% state, $3200/mn to rent an apartment in a mid sized city in the US, $400 month for car and gas, $1k for food, $1k for healthcare, $160 for utilities, leaves them with $288/mn. Not enough to ever own a home, build wealth, travel; better hope they have a spouse that is employed & has employer subsidized healthcare.
        jrochkind1 6y ago
        And yet, regardless, it's still more than 85% of incomes in the USA. That seems striking. Is 85% of the USA living on subsistence peanuts, not even enough to survive? Possibly.
omginternets 6y ago
>This blog post for me is evidence that we can make crowdfunded open source work, as long as the people receiving the money know how to effectively use it. Isn't this a restatement of the problem? My (uninformed) impression is that there are structural issues that make it hard to effectively run crowdfunded open-source projects. As you say, the secret sauce appears to be a question of managing the organization. Do you have any thoughts on how to reproducibly run such a projects?
noahtallen 6y ago
I mean, it’s also important to recognize that the average salary most people in the US gets paid does not include benefits. Let’s say the salary for a senior engineer is $100k. (This is super low in reality, especially in the tech world. Maybe not when including other types of companies.) Let’s say the typical cost of benefits is 30%. That works out to $130k total. That’s around $10.8k a month. And remember, this is the low end. In the blog post, they said they’re going to have each person make $6k per month (excluding benefits). Subtracting 30% for benefits, it works out to $50k a year base salary. For software developers in the US, that’s a pittance at any level. No, OSS devs shouldn’t be forced to take that little to work on important projects like Babel. If we want talented devs working in a certain area, we need to make it financially attractive.
kyawzazaw 6y ago
$130k is quite low for someone of Henry's skillset. Especially in US. Especially for Babel

ZephyrBlu 6y ago

If the people who are working on these projects are talented and can command high salaries, $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut. > My expectation would be that there is a ton of people willing to work for much less, so why Babel had to go with that person? Are all those people capable of managing Babel? I think the real question is: do you need top talent for important open source projects, or are average developers fine?

capableweb 6y ago
You somehow seem to think that amount someone earns is somehow related to how good they are. > $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut. Yes, sure, in Silicon Valley anything is possible but for the 99% rest of the world, 11K USD per month is ridiculously high and even people with decades of experience won't collect that unless there is a specific situation. It's definitely not normal outside of Silicon Valley companies. > Are all those people capable of managing Babel? Yes, I know of at least 10 JS developers with decades of experience who could handle maintaining Babel if it was up to them, and they don't earn close to 11K USD per month today. I'm sure they'd be happy to work on Open Source and effectively earning more, but many be happy just working on Open Source full time.
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  I think there is a correlation between income and skill. More specifically, I think it's likely that highly skilled people have higher than average incomes. > It's definitely not normal outside of Silicon Valley companies How many companies do you class as SV companies? It seems like in the US in general there are salaries at that level and higher, not just SV. I have also seen people talk about salaries in Europe at that level, though I suspect they are rarer than in the US.
- danielsju6 6y ago
  You realize that $11k has to pay their taxes, healthcare, and retirement state-side right? It’s peanuts.
  - jrochkind1 6y ago
    I think it's somewhere in between. Taxes, healthcare, and retirement are big in the US. And keep in mind that self-employment taxes (operative here) are more than the taxes taken out as an employee. But $11K/month * 12 == $132K. To roughy back-of-napkin equalize for higher self-employment taxes, let's say that's equivalent to $100K salary if you were an ordinary employee. (I just made that up, I don't know how accurate it is). $100K is still 84th percentile income for US, you are making more than 84% of people in the US. It's not "peanuts" or "subsistence". ($132K is 91st percentile income).
    - danielsju6 6y ago
      Back of the napkin to me: say $25.5k pre-tax retirement / college savings for child, 30% federal, 15% state, $3200/mn to rent an apartment in a mid sized city in the US, $400 month for car and gas, $1k for food, $1k for healthcare, $160 for utilities, leaves them with $288/mn. Not enough to ever own a home, build wealth, travel; better hope they have a spouse that is employed & has employer subsidized healthcare.
      - jrochkind1 6y ago
        And yet, regardless, it's still more than 85% of incomes in the USA. That seems striking. Is 85% of the USA living on subsistence peanuts, not even enough to survive? Possibly.

omginternets 6y ago

>This blog post for me is evidence that we can make crowdfunded open source work, as long as the people receiving the money know how to effectively use it. Isn't this a restatement of the problem? My (uninformed) impression is that there are structural issues that make it hard to effectively run crowdfunded open-source projects. As you say, the secret sauce appears to be a question of managing the organization. Do you have any thoughts on how to reproducibly run such a projects?

noahtallen 6y ago

I mean, it’s also important to recognize that the average salary most people in the US gets paid does not include benefits. Let’s say the salary for a senior engineer is $100k. (This is super low in reality, especially in the tech world. Maybe not when including other types of companies.) Let’s say the typical cost of benefits is 30%. That works out to $130k total. That’s around $10.8k a month. And remember, this is the low end. In the blog post, they said they’re going to have each person make $6k per month (excluding benefits). Subtracting 30% for benefits, it works out to $50k a year base salary. For software developers in the US, that’s a pittance at any level. No, OSS devs shouldn’t be forced to take that little to work on important projects like Babel. If we want talented devs working in a certain area, we need to make it financially attractive.

kyawzazaw 6y ago

$130k is quite low for someone of Henry's skillset. Especially in US. Especially for Babel