5 ms·

This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken. Very competent people are expected to write widely used software f

This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken. Very competent people are expected to write widely used software for a salary that basically merely guarantees subsistence. It never ceases to amaze me how great software engineers allow themselves to be exploited in such a way. If you consider the societal impact that some of these projects have and the skill set that some of their maintainers have, which pretty much dwarfs the skill sets of people in other well paid professions such as lawyers or doctors, it's frankly ridiculous that they are expected to work for significantly less money. Not to mention that the abstractions some of these people wrote basically allow a significant number of people to enter the industry in the first place.

ForHackernews 5y ago
Just license your software under the GPL, then corporations can't take and use it without contributing back. It's hard for me to feel sympathetic for people who deliberately sign up for a model that encourages free-riding and then complain about it.
- corty 5y ago
  So much this. Earning money with "do whatever"-style licenses like BSD or MIT is bound to fail. Use GPL and sell commercial licenses on the side.
- thrower123 5y ago
  What exactly would the benefit of licencing a tool like Babel under GPL be? It would be completely moot. Using a GPL transpiler isn't going to confer GPL virally onto the code that you run through it.
  - ForHackernews 5y ago
    It would mean big greedy companies with skittish legal departments would be forbidden from using it without paying for a commercial license.
capableweb 5y ago
> This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken This blog post for me is evidence that we can make crowdfunded open source work, as long as the people receiving the money know how to effectively use it. The team handling the economy of Babel right now, does not, hence Babel is not sustainable. But, if you'd make the salaries a bit more realistic, Babel would have money over each year. But that's based on them not giving themselves one of the highest salary in the world. Let's see what they'll do. > Very competent people are expected to write widely used software for a salary that basically merely guarantees subsistence. "merely guarantees subsistence", what the hell? Maybe if you live in SF, but any other place in the world, this kind of salary is not even what seniors pull in yearly. My own anecdote: > Not only a decent living, but that's a very good salary in most places in the world. As an anecdote, I've always worked in private sector IT (as a developer and manager), have around 20 years of experience and worked in both small and big enterprises and startups, and I've never had that high salary. If you'd offer me that for working on open source full-time, I'd be surprised. My expectation would be that there is a ton of people willing to work for much less, so why Babel had to go with that person? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27116591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27116591
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  If the people who are working on these projects are talented and can command high salaries, $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut. > My expectation would be that there is a ton of people willing to work for much less, so why Babel had to go with that person? Are all those people capable of managing Babel? I think the real question is: do you need top talent for important open source projects, or are average developers fine?
  - capableweb 5y ago
    You somehow seem to think that amount someone earns is somehow related to how good they are. > $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut. Yes, sure, in Silicon Valley anything is possible but for the 99% rest of the world, 11K USD per month is ridiculously high and even people with decades of experience won't collect that unless there is a specific situation. It's definitely not normal outside of Silicon Valley companies. > Are all those people capable of managing Babel? Yes, I know of at least 10 JS developers with decades of experience who could handle maintaining Babel if it was up to them, and they don't earn close to 11K USD per month today. I'm sure they'd be happy to work on Open Source and effectively earning more, but many be happy just working on Open Source full time.
prepend 5y ago
> OSS model, unfortunately, is broken. I don’t think this is true. The mode works phenomenally well (eg, Apache, Linux, Postgres, etc). But it doesn’t work for all projects and isn’t the same as commercial software. If I create a project with the goal to make lots of money, then I probably won’t succeed. Conflating “doesn’t work for me” with “broken” is not using all the available evidence.
- FiberBundle 5y ago
  It shouldn't be about making lots of money, personally I find it great that most good software engineers aren't primarily driven by money, but that mindset shouldn't imply exploitation. It's just a fact that large corporations and companies in general benefit disproportionally from OSS. The value that open source software creates stands in no relation to the price that companies pay for it, even if the maintainers of some projects are perfectly happy with the compensation they receive. If you don't need a large part of the money that your work justifies, then just give it to charity, but don't allow companies to take it.
cblconfederate 5y ago
they re also incentivized to write OSS that benefits huge conglomerates, but not individuals so they can attract the big donors. It's broken many years now. Copyleft licenses can at least salvage some of the wreck
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
I'm the lead dev of Ardour, paid entirely by voluntarily payments for the software, and I make about $100k/year from the software itself. That's after nearly 35 years as a C++ software developer. Some people think I'm a brilliant programmer, I'd settle for "probably about as good as anyone you're likely to be able to hire". So why it is not ridiculous that I'm not working for twice that or more at some larger tech outfit? Because one of the benefits of working in the open source domain is that the entire structure of the work is completely different. No marketing. No bullshit. No corporate structures to satisfy. I can't speak for anyone else (within OSS or not), but to me those benefits are worth at least $80k/yr, if not much more. To be fair, perhaps my attitude would be different if I had not previously been involved in starting up a certain well known e-commerce company which, while not allowing me to never work again, let me get the financial aspects of life into pretty good shape. But I think I know plenty of younger people who want to be in software and are willing to earn less in exchange for more interesting work, less bullshit, more freedom and maybe even a sense of purpose beyond "we're going to make boatloads of cash".
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- fartcannon 5y ago
  You are a tremendous contributor to open source software. My visually impaired friend appreciates the keyboard controls of ardour and as a result of your hard work (and his) creates and masters a lot of music without too much difficulty. So, you know, thanks. You made the world a better place.
vfclists 5y ago
117 million downloads every month. 1 cent a download = 117,000,000 cents = $1,170,000. So the project is dying because they cannot get every downloader to pay 1 cent for every download. Even at 1/10 cent it would still come to $117,000 This is how screwed up open source is. An advanced technological industry which doesn't have infrastructure in place to collect fractions of cents per product delivery. Why can't the software be downloaded using an API using a key you have to pay for or something?
- GianFabien 5y ago
  I can't understand why there are 117 million downloads every month. I doubt there are 117 million programmers using Babel and why download it every month?
  - Too 5y ago
    I'm sure 99% of all CI systems out there are just blindly doing npm install without any cache or pinned packages. Multiplied with microservices so that every run has to rebuild not just one service.
    - toomanybeersies 5y ago
      For the savings in data transfer, it's not worth the time to set up and kind of caching for package dependencies. To mitigate the risk of supply chain attacks, on the other hand...
    - GianFabien 5y ago
      I hadn't thought of that. Internet access isn't virtually free everywhere in the world.
jgwil2 5y ago
> pretty much dwarfs the skill sets of people in other well paid professions such as lawyers or doctors I don't know how you could possibly measure this except by years of training, which would put both doctors and lawyers ahead of software developers. But really, it's apples and oranges.
- Siira 5y ago
  Doctors, for one, work to fiddle essentially a blackbox, under intensive regulation, and the results of their work is very hard to measure. This has led to a model where artificial processes are introduced that select for the privileged and the smart to become doctors. The artificial education does not mean these people have more skillsets. Like most education, it just signals conscientiousness and intellect. On the other hand, software design is probably the single best domain for humans to build new skills, with its fast feedback loop, transparency, ease of measuring results, and the fact that the whole system is more or less documented and obeys human intuitions.

ForHackernews 5y ago

Just license your software under the GPL, then corporations can't take and use it without contributing back. It's hard for me to feel sympathetic for people who deliberately sign up for a model that encourages free-riding and then complain about it.

corty 5y ago
So much this. Earning money with "do whatever"-style licenses like BSD or MIT is bound to fail. Use GPL and sell commercial licenses on the side.
thrower123 5y ago
What exactly would the benefit of licencing a tool like Babel under GPL be? It would be completely moot. Using a GPL transpiler isn't going to confer GPL virally onto the code that you run through it.
- ForHackernews 5y ago
  It would mean big greedy companies with skittish legal departments would be forbidden from using it without paying for a commercial license.

capableweb 5y ago

> This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken This blog post for me is evidence that we can make crowdfunded open source work, as long as the people receiving the money know how to effectively use it. The team handling the economy of Babel right now, does not, hence Babel is not sustainable. But, if you'd make the salaries a bit more realistic, Babel would have money over each year. But that's based on them not giving themselves one of the highest salary in the world. Let's see what they'll do. > Very competent people are expected to write widely used software for a salary that basically merely guarantees subsistence. "merely guarantees subsistence", what the hell? Maybe if you live in SF, but any other place in the world, this kind of salary is not even what seniors pull in yearly. My own anecdote: > Not only a decent living, but that's a very good salary in most places in the world. As an anecdote, I've always worked in private sector IT (as a developer and manager), have around 20 years of experience and worked in both small and big enterprises and startups, and I've never had that high salary. If you'd offer me that for working on open source full-time, I'd be surprised. My expectation would be that there is a ton of people willing to work for much less, so why Babel had to go with that person? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27116591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27116591

ZephyrBlu 5y ago
If the people who are working on these projects are talented and can command high salaries, $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut. > My expectation would be that there is a ton of people willing to work for much less, so why Babel had to go with that person? Are all those people capable of managing Babel? I think the real question is: do you need top talent for important open source projects, or are average developers fine?
- capableweb 5y ago
  You somehow seem to think that amount someone earns is somehow related to how good they are. > $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut. Yes, sure, in Silicon Valley anything is possible but for the 99% rest of the world, 11K USD per month is ridiculously high and even people with decades of experience won't collect that unless there is a specific situation. It's definitely not normal outside of Silicon Valley companies. > Are all those people capable of managing Babel? Yes, I know of at least 10 JS developers with decades of experience who could handle maintaining Babel if it was up to them, and they don't earn close to 11K USD per month today. I'm sure they'd be happy to work on Open Source and effectively earning more, but many be happy just working on Open Source full time.

prepend 5y ago

> OSS model, unfortunately, is broken. I don’t think this is true. The mode works phenomenally well (eg, Apache, Linux, Postgres, etc). But it doesn’t work for all projects and isn’t the same as commercial software. If I create a project with the goal to make lots of money, then I probably won’t succeed. Conflating “doesn’t work for me” with “broken” is not using all the available evidence.

FiberBundle 5y ago
It shouldn't be about making lots of money, personally I find it great that most good software engineers aren't primarily driven by money, but that mindset shouldn't imply exploitation. It's just a fact that large corporations and companies in general benefit disproportionally from OSS. The value that open source software creates stands in no relation to the price that companies pay for it, even if the maintainers of some projects are perfectly happy with the compensation they receive. If you don't need a large part of the money that your work justifies, then just give it to charity, but don't allow companies to take it.

cblconfederate 5y ago

they re also incentivized to write OSS that benefits huge conglomerates, but not individuals so they can attract the big donors. It's broken many years now. Copyleft licenses can at least salvage some of the wreck

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

I'm the lead dev of Ardour, paid entirely by voluntarily payments for the software, and I make about $100k/year from the software itself. That's after nearly 35 years as a C++ software developer. Some people think I'm a brilliant programmer, I'd settle for "probably about as good as anyone you're likely to be able to hire". So why it is not ridiculous that I'm not working for twice that or more at some larger tech outfit? Because one of the benefits of working in the open source domain is that the entire structure of the work is completely different. No marketing. No bullshit. No corporate structures to satisfy. I can't speak for anyone else (within OSS or not), but to me those benefits are worth at least $80k/yr, if not much more. To be fair, perhaps my attitude would be different if I had not previously been involved in starting up a certain well known e-commerce company which, while not allowing me to never work again, let me get the financial aspects of life into pretty good shape. But I think I know plenty of younger people who want to be in software and are willing to earn less in exchange for more interesting work, less bullshit, more freedom and maybe even a sense of purpose beyond "we're going to make boatloads of cash".

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fartcannon 5y ago
You are a tremendous contributor to open source software. My visually impaired friend appreciates the keyboard controls of ardour and as a result of your hard work (and his) creates and masters a lot of music without too much difficulty. So, you know, thanks. You made the world a better place.

vfclists 5y ago

117 million downloads every month. 1 cent a download = 117,000,000 cents = $1,170,000. So the project is dying because they cannot get every downloader to pay 1 cent for every download. Even at 1/10 cent it would still come to $117,000 This is how screwed up open source is. An advanced technological industry which doesn't have infrastructure in place to collect fractions of cents per product delivery. Why can't the software be downloaded using an API using a key you have to pay for or something?

GianFabien 5y ago
I can't understand why there are 117 million downloads every month. I doubt there are 117 million programmers using Babel and why download it every month?
- Too 5y ago
  I'm sure 99% of all CI systems out there are just blindly doing npm install without any cache or pinned packages. Multiplied with microservices so that every run has to rebuild not just one service.
  - toomanybeersies 5y ago
    For the savings in data transfer, it's not worth the time to set up and kind of caching for package dependencies. To mitigate the risk of supply chain attacks, on the other hand...
  - GianFabien 5y ago
    I hadn't thought of that. Internet access isn't virtually free everywhere in the world.

jgwil2 5y ago

> pretty much dwarfs the skill sets of people in other well paid professions such as lawyers or doctors I don't know how you could possibly measure this except by years of training, which would put both doctors and lawyers ahead of software developers. But really, it's apples and oranges.

Siira 5y ago
Doctors, for one, work to fiddle essentially a blackbox, under intensive regulation, and the results of their work is very hard to measure. This has led to a model where artificial processes are introduced that select for the privileged and the smart to become doctors. The artificial education does not mean these people have more skillsets. Like most education, it just signals conscientiousness and intellect. On the other hand, software design is probably the single best domain for humans to build new skills, with its fast feedback loop, transparency, ease of measuring results, and the fact that the whole system is more or less documented and obeys human intuitions.