4 ms·

I seriously doubt the lead developers of a team of 4 make more than $11k in most of Europe.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
justmedep 5y ago
Usually the product of a team of 4 is not that well known nor successful. And you can't really compare the average developer with the three developers mentioned since they are clearly outstanding and could get hired by almost any company.
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  This is the thing I don't think people get. They are treating these devs as though they are just run of the mill when it's highly likely they're very skilled.
- watwut 5y ago
  The salaries of engineers don't scale that much with success of the product. He can get hired by almost any company, but those companies will pay standard pay for lead developers of a team of 4. (But also no, his salary is not what bankrupts Babel. It is too low for that.)
emteycz 5y ago
Team of 4 of an unknown startup, yeah that'd be around $5k after taxes, health and social insurance and 5 weeks of vacation. Team of 4 of product like Babel, your doubts are misplaced. And you're forgetting equity.
fsloth 5y ago
I think that level is plausible but rare.
sdwolfz 5y ago
As employees, maybe in the UK or Ireland. Most likely not in Germany, and never in any eastern European country. As contractors, you could theoretically in any country, the more eastern, the more luck you need to have, but it's doable. Source: I've asked ex-colleagues, recruiters, and people at meetups.
- golergka 5y ago
  > never in any eastern European country A couple of Russian enterprise companies have been sucking up all available Java talent in the last couple of years, with top salaries coming up to a million roubles for non-managers. Salaries in Russia are calculated per month and post-tax (people don't even know how much tax they pay), so it's about $13k per month after tax, and $20k per month before tax. I have also seen a couple of openings for Rust engineers in financial sector promising up to $10k a month (after tax). Of course, this is a very far outlier from the average rates: senior engineer in Moscow typically takes home $3-5k (after tax, monthly). But it's not 'never'.
- qwytw 5y ago
  Idk, the median salary at Uber dev office in Lithuania (which is in eastern Europe) is ~9k EUR per month (which is 11k $). Granted they don't hire that many people and most other companies pay considerably less but I wouldn't say that this is something unachievable for higher end tech leads working in some companies.
wwn_se 5y ago
It's hard to compare between different countries due to different taxes and so on. But that's almost double what a generic team lead would make here in Sweden (50-60 is probably closer) but a high level dev working a prestige project could make more of course. They should probably change the business model to make more money from consulting or lecturing. Many companies pay well to get "famous-project" devs for consulting or talks. Donations is usually a different budget than training or short term staff.
- iSnow 5y ago
  True, and in many (oldschool) companies, it is easier to book a workshop for $10k than give a donation of $5k. Of course, the drawback is that the project would need even more devs to compensate for the time giving workshops, so IDK whether it would work out in the end. The salary is high for Europe, but not outlandish. I come within 15% working in IT in old industry but without leading a huge project and managing people, cooperation and giving talks. So, no, they should not pay much less even if the contributors probably have their dream job in contrast to me.
wodenokoto 5y ago
If you include benefits, then yes. You don’t even need to be lead developer to reach that kind of salary if you assume the $11k includes pension, vacation, mobile phone, computer, maybe a budget for seminars, lunch, etc.
throwaway8709 5y ago
Are you kidding me? FANG has lots of offices in Europe.. I work at one of those at around 20-35k USD / month, depending on stonk prices :) Making 11k USD is not uncommon for contractors in northern Europe, Switzerland or Germany. Sure, you can find many who are paid less. But talent is expensive.
- zelphirkalt 5y ago
  That's how much is needed to be paid for getting people to do unethical work. It is not directly comparable to working on a compiler used by many people.
  - bidirectional 5y ago
    What about the people working on open source compilers at those companies (e.g. ReasonML at Facebook).
- pjerem 5y ago
  At 20k USD / month, you are either incredibly good and/or lucky or you are not saying that you are working in Switzerland, in which case you forgot to say that your cost of living is higher than SV and you have no public health insurance. (but 20k/month is comfortable anyway, even in Switzerland)
- OmegaPG 5y ago
  There are plenty of contractors in India making $8-10k a month so there must be thousands in EU making $11k a month or more due to proximity and language advantage. Check freelancing sites to get some idea. Plenty of guys getting long term work at $60-$80 an hour.
antoinec 5y ago
One thing with software products is that revenues are usually not correlated at all with the size of the dev team, much more with the popularity of the product.
input_sh 5y ago
Seems plausible to me. That'd amount to something like $5k after taxes (definitely in a higher tax bracket), or a bit above €4k.
rndude 5y ago
$11k makes roughly €9k. If you work for a company in Germany this would be gross salary of roughly €6.5k a month. The rest 2.5k would be ancillary wage costs for the employer. That finally translates to €4k net after taxes including health insurance etc. I believe many good engineers make that amount of money in Germany.
- adflux 5y ago
  Really don't understand this logic. .. Very few engineers make 9k in Germany, simple. Why compare net wages to gross wages?
  - rndude 5y ago
    Its 9k cost to employer. Its 6.5k gross salary which translates to 78k gross salary a year for the employee. A lot of engineers make that salary. If you are receiving money as a freelancer you need to earn at least 50% more to get a similar net salary as an employee therefore a employee salary of 78k gross is roughly equal to a freelancer making 120k a year. You have to compare net income as everything else does not make sense.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- CRConrad 5y ago
  There is nothing that says those 11K include ancillary costs. It's called salary, so compare to salary, not to salary + ancillary costs.
exdsq 5y ago
Seems easy enough as a contractor
callamdelaney 5y ago
11k usd to GBP is £7791~ - that's £93.5k / year roughly. Most senior devs should make more than this in London; though this is pre-tax.
- arp242 5y ago
  London is kind of exceptional because of the high cost of living; everything is more expensive in London.
  - callamdelaney 5y ago
    For sure. California is also quite expensive! You are probably better off earning ~$80k in a LCOL area in the US as opposed to ~£90k in London after taxes, expenses etc
throwaway8709 5y ago
Actually, the average salary for people with computer science degree and 5+ years experience is 9-12k USD according to IDA (Engineering union in Denmark). That's just the average!

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Usually the product of a team of 4 is not that well known nor successful. And you can't really compare the average developer with the three developers mentioned since they are clearly outstanding and could get hired by almost any company.

ZephyrBlu 5y ago
This is the thing I don't think people get. They are treating these devs as though they are just run of the mill when it's highly likely they're very skilled.
watwut 5y ago
The salaries of engineers don't scale that much with success of the product. He can get hired by almost any company, but those companies will pay standard pay for lead developers of a team of 4. (But also no, his salary is not what bankrupts Babel. It is too low for that.)

emteycz 5y ago

Team of 4 of an unknown startup, yeah that'd be around $5k after taxes, health and social insurance and 5 weeks of vacation. Team of 4 of product like Babel, your doubts are misplaced. And you're forgetting equity.

fsloth 5y ago

I think that level is plausible but rare.

sdwolfz 5y ago

As employees, maybe in the UK or Ireland. Most likely not in Germany, and never in any eastern European country. As contractors, you could theoretically in any country, the more eastern, the more luck you need to have, but it's doable. Source: I've asked ex-colleagues, recruiters, and people at meetups.

golergka 5y ago
> never in any eastern European country A couple of Russian enterprise companies have been sucking up all available Java talent in the last couple of years, with top salaries coming up to a million roubles for non-managers. Salaries in Russia are calculated per month and post-tax (people don't even know how much tax they pay), so it's about $13k per month after tax, and $20k per month before tax. I have also seen a couple of openings for Rust engineers in financial sector promising up to $10k a month (after tax). Of course, this is a very far outlier from the average rates: senior engineer in Moscow typically takes home $3-5k (after tax, monthly). But it's not 'never'.
qwytw 5y ago
Idk, the median salary at Uber dev office in Lithuania (which is in eastern Europe) is ~9k EUR per month (which is 11k $). Granted they don't hire that many people and most other companies pay considerably less but I wouldn't say that this is something unachievable for higher end tech leads working in some companies.

wwn_se 5y ago

It's hard to compare between different countries due to different taxes and so on. But that's almost double what a generic team lead would make here in Sweden (50-60 is probably closer) but a high level dev working a prestige project could make more of course. They should probably change the business model to make more money from consulting or lecturing. Many companies pay well to get "famous-project" devs for consulting or talks. Donations is usually a different budget than training or short term staff.

iSnow 5y ago
True, and in many (oldschool) companies, it is easier to book a workshop for $10k than give a donation of $5k. Of course, the drawback is that the project would need even more devs to compensate for the time giving workshops, so IDK whether it would work out in the end. The salary is high for Europe, but not outlandish. I come within 15% working in IT in old industry but without leading a huge project and managing people, cooperation and giving talks. So, no, they should not pay much less even if the contributors probably have their dream job in contrast to me.

wodenokoto 5y ago

If you include benefits, then yes. You don’t even need to be lead developer to reach that kind of salary if you assume the $11k includes pension, vacation, mobile phone, computer, maybe a budget for seminars, lunch, etc.

throwaway8709 5y ago

Are you kidding me? FANG has lots of offices in Europe.. I work at one of those at around 20-35k USD / month, depending on stonk prices :) Making 11k USD is not uncommon for contractors in northern Europe, Switzerland or Germany. Sure, you can find many who are paid less. But talent is expensive.

zelphirkalt 5y ago
That's how much is needed to be paid for getting people to do unethical work. It is not directly comparable to working on a compiler used by many people.
- bidirectional 5y ago
  What about the people working on open source compilers at those companies (e.g. ReasonML at Facebook).
pjerem 5y ago
At 20k USD / month, you are either incredibly good and/or lucky or you are not saying that you are working in Switzerland, in which case you forgot to say that your cost of living is higher than SV and you have no public health insurance. (but 20k/month is comfortable anyway, even in Switzerland)
OmegaPG 5y ago
There are plenty of contractors in India making $8-10k a month so there must be thousands in EU making $11k a month or more due to proximity and language advantage. Check freelancing sites to get some idea. Plenty of guys getting long term work at $60-$80 an hour.

antoinec 5y ago

One thing with software products is that revenues are usually not correlated at all with the size of the dev team, much more with the popularity of the product.

input_sh 5y ago

Seems plausible to me. That'd amount to something like $5k after taxes (definitely in a higher tax bracket), or a bit above €4k.

rndude 5y ago

$11k makes roughly €9k. If you work for a company in Germany this would be gross salary of roughly €6.5k a month. The rest 2.5k would be ancillary wage costs for the employer. That finally translates to €4k net after taxes including health insurance etc. I believe many good engineers make that amount of money in Germany.

adflux 5y ago
Really don't understand this logic. .. Very few engineers make 9k in Germany, simple. Why compare net wages to gross wages?
- rndude 5y ago
  Its 9k cost to employer. Its 6.5k gross salary which translates to 78k gross salary a year for the employee. A lot of engineers make that salary. If you are receiving money as a freelancer you need to earn at least 50% more to get a similar net salary as an employee therefore a employee salary of 78k gross is roughly equal to a freelancer making 120k a year. You have to compare net income as everything else does not make sense.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
CRConrad 5y ago
There is nothing that says those 11K include ancillary costs. It's called salary, so compare to salary, not to salary + ancillary costs.

exdsq 5y ago

Seems easy enough as a contractor

callamdelaney 5y ago

11k usd to GBP is £7791~ - that's £93.5k / year roughly. Most senior devs should make more than this in London; though this is pre-tax.

arp242 5y ago
London is kind of exceptional because of the high cost of living; everything is more expensive in London.
- callamdelaney 5y ago
  For sure. California is also quite expensive! You are probably better off earning ~$80k in a LCOL area in the US as opposed to ~£90k in London after taxes, expenses etc

throwaway8709 5y ago

Actually, the average salary for people with computer science degree and 5+ years experience is 9-12k USD according to IDA (Engineering union in Denmark). That's just the average!