4 ms·

Maybe you should ask for sources instead. Authority is the wrong thing to trust in science

by killingtime74 5y ago

adrianN 5y ago
Unless you have a background in immunology the sources are probably not terrible useful to you.
- feanaro 5y ago
  Probably, but not definitely. The only thing preventing you from understanding the sources yourself is some effort. It's not as hard as it is sometimes imagined.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    One problem with that is that any individual study should be read in the context of other published literature, if you want to form an informed opinion. The only alternative is authority - either looking at the journal where it was published, the authority of the authors, or the authority of someone who recommended the paper. Otherwise, it's easy to find plausible-sounding papers that have failed to reproduce in subsequent studies, that use too low samples compared to similar studies with different conclusions, that were later retracted etc.
- PartiallyTyped 5y ago
  They could be useful to somebody else, and that's a good enough reason to have them.
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  Oh, they will be, but in the opposite way to what GP seems to want. That is, I'd look at the sources as further sources of authority :). E.g. a bunch of papers from multiple teams, with some published by high-profile journals or authored by well-known researchers, indicates it's relatively safe to trust their conclusions. A bunch of papers from the same few people who seem to want to push their pet theory indicates low trustworthiness and need for independent verification. Unless you've studied the domain in question in depth, it's not like you could use the citations in any other way. Trust, as a heuristic, is fundamental to advanced research as much as it is for everything else in society.
randomsearch 5y ago
Authority is constantly used as an effective source of trust in science.
- brigandish 5y ago
  As an effective shortcut but it's still the wrong thing, ultimately, to trust.
  - j4yav 5y ago
    What is the alternative? Everyone grabs postdoctorate degrees in everything that might come up?
    - brigandish 5y ago
      Your question shows why it is a shortcut.
  - elcritch 5y ago
    Heuristic might be a better term.
  - beowulfey 5y ago
    A scientist who doesn’t use sources effectively and accurately themselves is not to be trusted as either an authority or as a scientist. It is the greatest sin for a researcher.
- bart_spoon 5y ago
  There is also a massive reproducibility crisis in science, and the two points are not not unrelated.
  - Retric 5y ago
    The “reproducibility crisis” is largely overblown. Individual scientific papers have always been close to junk on average. Look at a wide swath of papers from say the 1950’s or even 1850’s and you see not just poor methods but also outright fraud.
torcete 5y ago
However, isn't this how Bayesian thinking works? You give a higher prior to your believe depending of the source.
- roenxi 5y ago
  A perfectly reasonable approach; but then it is easier to ask people you trust rather than reading HN. Anonymous internet people are inherently unreliable.
- bart_spoon 5y ago
  Yes, but in this case authority would be your prior, and a source would be the data to update that prior. If you are only relying on authority, you are solely going off of your personal biases, which while potentially informative, isn't as useful as actual data.
- SuoDuanDao 5y ago
  That's why we ask for sources. If one doesn't trust lamontcg to know what they're talking about, we shouldn't trust them to be honest about that fact. We're often more likely to have Bayesian priors about a primary source than the people who refer to them.
pontus 5y ago
I completely agree... in principle. That being said, I actually think we tend to underestimate the value of trusting experts. Often times the sources out there that one could be quoting espouse conflicting and ambiguous conclusions and it ironically takes an expert to be able to parse through them all. If we could all trust experts a bit more and, rather than ask for sources, instead ask our experts to explain their reasoning to us, I think we'd all be better off in the long run in that we'd actually be learning from them rather than trying to constantly bootstrap becoming experts ourselves.

Maybe you should ask for sources instead. Authority is the wrong thing to trust in science

adrianN 5y ago

Unless you have a background in immunology the sources are probably not terrible useful to you.

feanaro 5y ago
Probably, but not definitely. The only thing preventing you from understanding the sources yourself is some effort. It's not as hard as it is sometimes imagined.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  One problem with that is that any individual study should be read in the context of other published literature, if you want to form an informed opinion. The only alternative is authority - either looking at the journal where it was published, the authority of the authors, or the authority of someone who recommended the paper. Otherwise, it's easy to find plausible-sounding papers that have failed to reproduce in subsequent studies, that use too low samples compared to similar studies with different conclusions, that were later retracted etc.
PartiallyTyped 5y ago
They could be useful to somebody else, and that's a good enough reason to have them.
TeMPOraL 5y ago
Oh, they will be, but in the opposite way to what GP seems to want. That is, I'd look at the sources as further sources of authority :). E.g. a bunch of papers from multiple teams, with some published by high-profile journals or authored by well-known researchers, indicates it's relatively safe to trust their conclusions. A bunch of papers from the same few people who seem to want to push their pet theory indicates low trustworthiness and need for independent verification. Unless you've studied the domain in question in depth, it's not like you could use the citations in any other way. Trust, as a heuristic, is fundamental to advanced research as much as it is for everything else in society.

randomsearch 5y ago

Authority is constantly used as an effective source of trust in science.

brigandish 5y ago
As an effective shortcut but it's still the wrong thing, ultimately, to trust.
- j4yav 5y ago
  What is the alternative? Everyone grabs postdoctorate degrees in everything that might come up?
  - brigandish 5y ago
    Your question shows why it is a shortcut.
- elcritch 5y ago
  Heuristic might be a better term.
- beowulfey 5y ago
  A scientist who doesn’t use sources effectively and accurately themselves is not to be trusted as either an authority or as a scientist. It is the greatest sin for a researcher.
bart_spoon 5y ago
There is also a massive reproducibility crisis in science, and the two points are not not unrelated.
- Retric 5y ago
  The “reproducibility crisis” is largely overblown. Individual scientific papers have always been close to junk on average. Look at a wide swath of papers from say the 1950’s or even 1850’s and you see not just poor methods but also outright fraud.

torcete 5y ago

However, isn't this how Bayesian thinking works? You give a higher prior to your believe depending of the source.

roenxi 5y ago
A perfectly reasonable approach; but then it is easier to ask people you trust rather than reading HN. Anonymous internet people are inherently unreliable.
bart_spoon 5y ago
Yes, but in this case authority would be your prior, and a source would be the data to update that prior. If you are only relying on authority, you are solely going off of your personal biases, which while potentially informative, isn't as useful as actual data.
SuoDuanDao 5y ago
That's why we ask for sources. If one doesn't trust lamontcg to know what they're talking about, we shouldn't trust them to be honest about that fact. We're often more likely to have Bayesian priors about a primary source than the people who refer to them.

pontus 5y ago

I completely agree... in principle. That being said, I actually think we tend to underestimate the value of trusting experts. Often times the sources out there that one could be quoting espouse conflicting and ambiguous conclusions and it ironically takes an expert to be able to parse through them all. If we could all trust experts a bit more and, rather than ask for sources, instead ask our experts to explain their reasoning to us, I think we'd all be better off in the long run in that we'd actually be learning from them rather than trying to constantly bootstrap becoming experts ourselves.