6 ms·

FlatCAM: Free and Open-Source PCB Cam

77 points by danboarder 5y ago

franga2000 5y ago
GitHub link, since the website seems to be down: https://github.com/Denvi/FlatCAM https://github.com/Denvi/FlatCAM
- brohee 5y ago
  It actually moved to BitBucket https://bitbucket.org/jpcgt/flatcam/src/master/ https://bitbucket.org/jpcgt/flatcam/src/master/, the GitHub repo is not up to date.
fxtentacle 5y ago
Reading the title, I was looking forward to hearing from other people working on open source digital cameras. But no, this is a CAM = computer aided manufacturing software like KiCAD. Cam != CAM
- daef 5y ago
  +1, I also fell for the 'Cam'. Could someone please update the title?
- unwind 5y ago
  Thanks. Mods, please consider editing the title to make this more clear (e.g. use "FlatCAM: free and open source PCB manufacturing software" or something). Thanks!
- shash 5y ago
  Me too, but this is interesting in and of itself. This could make a lot of small-scale prototyping projects that much easier - no messing around with Ferric Chloride and acetone, and no waiting for the PCB to be manufactured and sent back.
  - bsder 5y ago
    It really isn't interesting beyond the hack factor. 4 layers boards from China are cheaper than the equivalent 2-sided copper blanks. And, unless you still do everything with through-hole components, you have to plate the holes which takes you several days of futzing with nasty chemicals anyway. Here's an actually disruptive idea for great hackers: rather than continuing to diddle with making PCBs that's been solved a hundred times over, come up with an open-source pick and place that can actually do 0402 and 0201 components. It's got all the bits: gantry CNC, actuator with air, optical vision alignment via machine learning, accurate parts handling, and helps build boards. And it's a huge unsolved space. Every time I've dealt with pick and place machines short of 7 figures, I spend more time dorking with the machine than actually populating boards.
    - shash 5y ago
      I'm thinking of small prototypes or production runs of one or two pieces - had a situation last year when we needed to interface between a TCP connection on one side and a 12V trigger signal on the other - just a microcontroller with an optocoupler connected on one pin and an ethernet controller on the other side. We ended up spending quite a bit, between lockdowns, the minimum order, and our (my!) own messing up the circuit. Ended up just barely making it in time. If we'd had this thing, we could have rapidly prototyped this board, discovered the mistake and made appropriate changes within a couple of days, instead of having to take more than a month...
    - StavrosK 5y ago
      No. It's very interesting. Yes, 4 layer boards from China are cheap, but I don't care about cheap. I care about not having to wait, and if I can get something good enough in an hour at home, that's going to beat waiting for perfect to get shipped every time. I don't care about plating the holes, I'll solder a wire through them on both sides, done. > come up with an open-source pick and place that can actually do 0402 and 0201 components. Why? What do I care about 0201 components? I use 0805 and I can solder them fine. This problem "really isn't interesting".
    - cyberdelica 5y ago
- RicoElectrico 5y ago
  Another case of HN's "headline mangler" doing more harm than good. The truth is that many of articles whose titles it tries to bona-fide "sanitize" should be flagged by the users anyway as low-effort content (Like listicles, which get the number in front of the title removed, and so on). Did somebody compile a list of transformations HN does on titles?
- afandian 5y ago
  Here's someone who made a camera on a PCB out of discrete pixels. https://www.instructables.com/DIY-Image-Sensor-and-Digital-Camera/ https://www.instructables.com/DIY-Image-Sensor-and-Digital-C...
shash 5y ago
Question for anyone familiar with this: which CNCs work well with this?
- nbernard 5y ago
  If you mean with FlatCAM specifically, I don't know. If you mean this kind of application, I believe many should work. At least, I have made PCBs on a Shapeoko 3 XXL ( https://carbide3d.com/ https://carbide3d.com/ ) without any issue (which was not a given: These machines are on the large side for such applications).
  - zibzab 5y ago
    Flatcam generates gcode and should work with most engravers, routers and 3d-printers with minimal tinkering. You can buy devices 10x cheaper from China, but there are very few dedicated to PCB milling.
- opencl 5y ago
  I have one of the really cheap (sub-$200) generic Chinese machines and it does a reasonably good job. Here is a very thorough writeup of doing PCB milling with this type of machine: https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/11205-milling-pcbs-with-cheap-chinese-desktop-cnc-router/ https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/11205-milling-pcbs-...
bcaa7f3a8bbc 5y ago
I bet many people will say that today's circuit boards are so cheap and making one at home is just too troublesome - and these days you can't make a good digital system on a two-layer circuit boards without a ground plane and controlled impedance, so why bother? And the usual reply is that you can get a board immediately without waiting, and for low-speed analog circuits or small microcontrollers, two-layer boards are usually adequate. I believe while both are true, there's also an important application that is not always mentioned - RF prototypes. It's still very expensive to buy a circuit board made of specialized low-loss RF laminate, such as the Rogers series. But raw boards can be purchased at a reasonable price. Having a CNC/milling machine can be extremely useful to prototype RF planar circuits in the GHz realm.
- baybal2 5y ago
  Not everywhere you can get a board done in 8 hours... There are places in the world where even DHL Sameday needs 1 month to get.
- StavrosK 5y ago
  > I bet many people will say that today's circuit boards are so cheap and making one at home is just too troublesome I've heard this a lot and can never understand it. It's like saying "why use a 3D printer when you can get the same thing for $50 or $10 and a month of waiting?". Because sometimes I want a good-enough thing for cheap now, not a perfect thing for expensive later.
  - danhor 5y ago
    The reason is that ordering PCBs take ~2 weeks and cost 6$, where any time invested in making them yourself is more expensive. Additionally a 3D printer is much less of a hassle to use (basically level the bed, start the print and wait) than etching PCBs. The only reason for doing them yourself are (if you already have all the required things): - Getting them really quick (~hours) - Getting them somewhat quick (saving on shipping, around 30$) - Wanting to With ~everyone using smd components today, soldermask is also pretty much a must-have which makes doing it yourself even more annoying. In comparison to 15 years ago, where doing it yourself was the only option, it's really understandable that a lot of people just don't anymore.
varispeed 5y ago
Is it possible these days to create 6 layer board at home? Let's say, could I get tools to do it for less than $10k? I am tired of sending my projects to China and domestic companies are prohibitively expensive for a hobbyist. edit: I had one 2 layer board made locally for almost $500 and that without even a silk screen and I got a ten 6 layer boards for about $300 from China including shipping and taxes.
- elcritch 5y ago
  PocketNC, Shapeko, etc cnc machines will all be fine for pcbs. But you could also try OSHPark, Digikey, Sundtone all have decent(ish) US prices.
- zibzab 5y ago
  Sorry answer: no. Long answer: no. you can't get the precision needed to correctly drill and align the 5 boards (for 6 layers) at home. If you can, this means your boards are probably simple enough to not need 6 layers.
zibzab 5y ago
This software is awesome. And it can also be used for so many other things than PCBs. For example, I have used it with vertical printers in past. With that said, I wish there were more cheap hardware to go with it. Come on Shenzen, do your thing! Also, note that if you use glass fiber PCBs, the particles created by PCB milling are very dangerous and can give you cancer. You might want to switch to compressed paper PCBs instead (I think they are called F2 or something similar)
squarefoot 5y ago
What CNC would you suggest for small production at home? I would use it for prototyping, personal projects and possibly testing boards layouts before sending them to a service. Hobbyist level, max 2 layers and mostly THT or bigger SMT, although being able to work with SOT* parts would come handy one day, but I have no such requirements today. These are things I could easily do by hand the old way using pen, pad transfers, and FeCl3, however they would be tedious to produce in more than one piece at a time, and I'm not living anymore in a place where I can safely use etching solutions without risking to harm other people and/or pets, so I have to look for a CNC. Speed is not a problem, decent accuracy would be enough, size and cost would matter however. Tnx for any advice!

77 points by danboarder 5y ago

franga2000 5y ago

GitHub link, since the website seems to be down: https://github.com/Denvi/FlatCAM https://github.com/Denvi/FlatCAM

brohee 5y ago
It actually moved to BitBucket https://bitbucket.org/jpcgt/flatcam/src/master/ https://bitbucket.org/jpcgt/flatcam/src/master/, the GitHub repo is not up to date.

fxtentacle 5y ago

Reading the title, I was looking forward to hearing from other people working on open source digital cameras. But no, this is a CAM = computer aided manufacturing software like KiCAD. Cam != CAM

daef 5y ago
+1, I also fell for the 'Cam'. Could someone please update the title?
unwind 5y ago
Thanks. Mods, please consider editing the title to make this more clear (e.g. use "FlatCAM: free and open source PCB manufacturing software" or something). Thanks!
shash 5y ago
Me too, but this is interesting in and of itself. This could make a lot of small-scale prototyping projects that much easier - no messing around with Ferric Chloride and acetone, and no waiting for the PCB to be manufactured and sent back.
- bsder 5y ago
  It really isn't interesting beyond the hack factor. 4 layers boards from China are cheaper than the equivalent 2-sided copper blanks. And, unless you still do everything with through-hole components, you have to plate the holes which takes you several days of futzing with nasty chemicals anyway. Here's an actually disruptive idea for great hackers: rather than continuing to diddle with making PCBs that's been solved a hundred times over, come up with an open-source pick and place that can actually do 0402 and 0201 components. It's got all the bits: gantry CNC, actuator with air, optical vision alignment via machine learning, accurate parts handling, and helps build boards. And it's a huge unsolved space. Every time I've dealt with pick and place machines short of 7 figures, I spend more time dorking with the machine than actually populating boards.
  - shash 5y ago
    I'm thinking of small prototypes or production runs of one or two pieces - had a situation last year when we needed to interface between a TCP connection on one side and a 12V trigger signal on the other - just a microcontroller with an optocoupler connected on one pin and an ethernet controller on the other side. We ended up spending quite a bit, between lockdowns, the minimum order, and our (my!) own messing up the circuit. Ended up just barely making it in time. If we'd had this thing, we could have rapidly prototyped this board, discovered the mistake and made appropriate changes within a couple of days, instead of having to take more than a month...
  - StavrosK 5y ago
    No. It's very interesting. Yes, 4 layer boards from China are cheap, but I don't care about cheap. I care about not having to wait, and if I can get something good enough in an hour at home, that's going to beat waiting for perfect to get shipped every time. I don't care about plating the holes, I'll solder a wire through them on both sides, done. > come up with an open-source pick and place that can actually do 0402 and 0201 components. Why? What do I care about 0201 components? I use 0805 and I can solder them fine. This problem "really isn't interesting".
  - cyberdelica 5y ago
RicoElectrico 5y ago
Another case of HN's "headline mangler" doing more harm than good. The truth is that many of articles whose titles it tries to bona-fide "sanitize" should be flagged by the users anyway as low-effort content (Like listicles, which get the number in front of the title removed, and so on). Did somebody compile a list of transformations HN does on titles?
afandian 5y ago
Here's someone who made a camera on a PCB out of discrete pixels. https://www.instructables.com/DIY-Image-Sensor-and-Digital-Camera/ https://www.instructables.com/DIY-Image-Sensor-and-Digital-C...

shash 5y ago

Question for anyone familiar with this: which CNCs work well with this?

nbernard 5y ago
If you mean with FlatCAM specifically, I don't know. If you mean this kind of application, I believe many should work. At least, I have made PCBs on a Shapeoko 3 XXL ( https://carbide3d.com/ https://carbide3d.com/ ) without any issue (which was not a given: These machines are on the large side for such applications).
- zibzab 5y ago
  Flatcam generates gcode and should work with most engravers, routers and 3d-printers with minimal tinkering. You can buy devices 10x cheaper from China, but there are very few dedicated to PCB milling.
opencl 5y ago
I have one of the really cheap (sub-$200) generic Chinese machines and it does a reasonably good job. Here is a very thorough writeup of doing PCB milling with this type of machine: https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/11205-milling-pcbs-with-cheap-chinese-desktop-cnc-router/ https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/11205-milling-pcbs-...

bcaa7f3a8bbc 5y ago

I bet many people will say that today's circuit boards are so cheap and making one at home is just too troublesome - and these days you can't make a good digital system on a two-layer circuit boards without a ground plane and controlled impedance, so why bother? And the usual reply is that you can get a board immediately without waiting, and for low-speed analog circuits or small microcontrollers, two-layer boards are usually adequate. I believe while both are true, there's also an important application that is not always mentioned - RF prototypes. It's still very expensive to buy a circuit board made of specialized low-loss RF laminate, such as the Rogers series. But raw boards can be purchased at a reasonable price. Having a CNC/milling machine can be extremely useful to prototype RF planar circuits in the GHz realm.

baybal2 5y ago
Not everywhere you can get a board done in 8 hours... There are places in the world where even DHL Sameday needs 1 month to get.
StavrosK 5y ago
> I bet many people will say that today's circuit boards are so cheap and making one at home is just too troublesome I've heard this a lot and can never understand it. It's like saying "why use a 3D printer when you can get the same thing for $50 or $10 and a month of waiting?". Because sometimes I want a good-enough thing for cheap now, not a perfect thing for expensive later.
- danhor 5y ago
  The reason is that ordering PCBs take ~2 weeks and cost 6$, where any time invested in making them yourself is more expensive. Additionally a 3D printer is much less of a hassle to use (basically level the bed, start the print and wait) than etching PCBs. The only reason for doing them yourself are (if you already have all the required things): - Getting them really quick (~hours) - Getting them somewhat quick (saving on shipping, around 30$) - Wanting to With ~everyone using smd components today, soldermask is also pretty much a must-have which makes doing it yourself even more annoying. In comparison to 15 years ago, where doing it yourself was the only option, it's really understandable that a lot of people just don't anymore.

varispeed 5y ago

Is it possible these days to create 6 layer board at home? Let's say, could I get tools to do it for less than $10k? I am tired of sending my projects to China and domestic companies are prohibitively expensive for a hobbyist. edit: I had one 2 layer board made locally for almost $500 and that without even a silk screen and I got a ten 6 layer boards for about $300 from China including shipping and taxes.

elcritch 5y ago
PocketNC, Shapeko, etc cnc machines will all be fine for pcbs. But you could also try OSHPark, Digikey, Sundtone all have decent(ish) US prices.
zibzab 5y ago
Sorry answer: no. Long answer: no. you can't get the precision needed to correctly drill and align the 5 boards (for 6 layers) at home. If you can, this means your boards are probably simple enough to not need 6 layers.

zibzab 5y ago

This software is awesome. And it can also be used for so many other things than PCBs. For example, I have used it with vertical printers in past. With that said, I wish there were more cheap hardware to go with it. Come on Shenzen, do your thing! Also, note that if you use glass fiber PCBs, the particles created by PCB milling are very dangerous and can give you cancer. You might want to switch to compressed paper PCBs instead (I think they are called F2 or something similar)

squarefoot 5y ago

What CNC would you suggest for small production at home? I would use it for prototyping, personal projects and possibly testing boards layouts before sending them to a service. Hobbyist level, max 2 layers and mostly THT or bigger SMT, although being able to work with SOT* parts would come handy one day, but I have no such requirements today. These are things I could easily do by hand the old way using pen, pad transfers, and FeCl3, however they would be tedious to produce in more than one piece at a time, and I'm not living anymore in a place where I can safely use etching solutions without risking to harm other people and/or pets, so I have to look for a CNC. Speed is not a problem, decent accuracy would be enough, size and cost would matter however. Tnx for any advice!