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Why is MJML a non-option? It was a huge time saver for me. Combine it with react-mjml and you can get typesafe email templates that work in pretty much any brow

Why is MJML a non-option? It was a huge time saver for me. Combine it with react-mjml and you can get typesafe email templates that work in pretty much any browser. I managed templates by hand for a long time, and it took me a couple weeks to replace everything with MJML, but it was worth it.

Eupolemos 5y ago
I'm remaking my workplace's transactional emails these days (order confirmation, receipt etc. for an online shop - emails customers also reply to when stuff doesn't go as expected). We want something responsive for smartphones, but are primarily a B2B company. I made what they wanted with MJML. Looked good in a browser, gmail and phone. Outlook had a few issues, can't remember which right now. But replying from Outlook simply broke the styling completely. Gaps between each section, complete mess. Not the impression you want to give the customers when their order goes wrong. B2B means Outlook is what out customers use. I've found that replying via Outlook is the ultimate integrity test of an eamil. Now I'm making them by hand and it is a madening cargo cult bonanza. Takes a lot of time. I guess MJML is fine for marketing.
- iamacyborg 5y ago
  > But replying from Outlook simply broke the styling completely This is an Outlook problem, not an MJML or even an HTML problem. If you inspect the HTML for the email sent vs what Outlook sends on a reply you’ll see it has changed the code. Here’s an excellent highlight of this bug https://www.hteumeuleu.com/2016/super-mail-forward-an-email-that-evolves-as-you-forward-it/ https://www.hteumeuleu.com/2016/super-mail-forward-an-email-...
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    The end user doesn't know that, and doesn't care.
    - iamacyborg 5y ago
      Your boss is not your end user. The way your boss interacts with the emails you send is not the way your end users do. Optimising for your boss is not how this channel should work, though I appreciate there are a lot of bosses out there who don’t understand this.
      - oblio 5y ago
        I don't understand your point. Are you complaining that his boss is forcing him to implement something that his end users can use? If so, why isn't his boss right? Personally, I'd say that yeah, he's supposed to work for his end user, why would he do anything else?
        iamacyborg 5y ago
        My point is that, from the perspective of email, you frequently receive internal feedback that doesn't correspond to how users actually use email. For example, if the org uses desktop Outlook but < 1% of your audience does, is it worth optimising the email for that audience based on internal feedback? If someone notices that something weird happens when an email is replied to or forwarded, is that something worth acting on based on the real world frequency of that action?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - Eupolemos 5y ago
    > This is an Outlook problem, not an MJML or even an HTML problem. Though you are technically correct, I just don't think this is a constructive attitude. Half the job of making emails is working around (Outlook) bugs. This is just the annoying world email coding. If MJML is content ignoring Outlook bugs, MJML just isn't a satisfying tool for email makers. Sure, it'll get the job done for some marketing, but now the developer isn't learning skills that will make robust emails beyond that. Making robust emails becomes a completely separate skillset and the developer who chose to invest time in MJML will have to start all over learninging the necessary skills if he needs to make email you can actually reply to.
    - iamacyborg 5y ago
      > Though you are technically correct, I just don't think this is a constructive attitude. I’ve worked in email for a decade, you do what you can with the tools you've been given. An email will never look perfect everywhere and while I agree with the general sentiment you’re talking about regarding folks learning proper email code rather than relying on tools, I also think the quality of emails sent is substantially higher now thanks to those tools.
tailspin2019 5y ago
I agree, I’ve had pretty good results using MJML now for several years (and I’ve been doing HTML emails since almost the 90’s!) This is a problem area where a good abstraction framework is highly useful in my opinion. That said I don’t specialise in email, it’s something I do “when I need to”. So if I was spending more time doing this sort thing, I might be more inclined to move down an abstraction level back to HTML/CSS and improve my knowledge of various client support. To just get the job done though, MJML is highly recommended. I see also a lot of mentions on this thread about replying to emails breaking the layout. Part of me thinks we’re fighting a losing battle here anyway so there is a limit to how much time it’s worth spending to make sure even replies are formatted nicely across all clients. But the other thing to consider is whether the email template is just trying to do too much. I try and keep my email templates very sparse, clean and simple and I generally haven’t had too many issues with reply/forward formatting (that I’m aware of).

Eupolemos 5y ago

I'm remaking my workplace's transactional emails these days (order confirmation, receipt etc. for an online shop - emails customers also reply to when stuff doesn't go as expected). We want something responsive for smartphones, but are primarily a B2B company. I made what they wanted with MJML. Looked good in a browser, gmail and phone. Outlook had a few issues, can't remember which right now. But replying from Outlook simply broke the styling completely. Gaps between each section, complete mess. Not the impression you want to give the customers when their order goes wrong. B2B means Outlook is what out customers use. I've found that replying via Outlook is the ultimate integrity test of an eamil. Now I'm making them by hand and it is a madening cargo cult bonanza. Takes a lot of time. I guess MJML is fine for marketing.

iamacyborg 5y ago
> But replying from Outlook simply broke the styling completely This is an Outlook problem, not an MJML or even an HTML problem. If you inspect the HTML for the email sent vs what Outlook sends on a reply you’ll see it has changed the code. Here’s an excellent highlight of this bug https://www.hteumeuleu.com/2016/super-mail-forward-an-email-that-evolves-as-you-forward-it/ https://www.hteumeuleu.com/2016/super-mail-forward-an-email-...
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  The end user doesn't know that, and doesn't care.
  - iamacyborg 5y ago
    Your boss is not your end user. The way your boss interacts with the emails you send is not the way your end users do. Optimising for your boss is not how this channel should work, though I appreciate there are a lot of bosses out there who don’t understand this.
    - oblio 5y ago
      I don't understand your point. Are you complaining that his boss is forcing him to implement something that his end users can use? If so, why isn't his boss right? Personally, I'd say that yeah, he's supposed to work for his end user, why would he do anything else?
      - iamacyborg 5y ago
        My point is that, from the perspective of email, you frequently receive internal feedback that doesn't correspond to how users actually use email. For example, if the org uses desktop Outlook but < 1% of your audience does, is it worth optimising the email for that audience based on internal feedback? If someone notices that something weird happens when an email is replied to or forwarded, is that something worth acting on based on the real world frequency of that action?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- Eupolemos 5y ago
  > This is an Outlook problem, not an MJML or even an HTML problem. Though you are technically correct, I just don't think this is a constructive attitude. Half the job of making emails is working around (Outlook) bugs. This is just the annoying world email coding. If MJML is content ignoring Outlook bugs, MJML just isn't a satisfying tool for email makers. Sure, it'll get the job done for some marketing, but now the developer isn't learning skills that will make robust emails beyond that. Making robust emails becomes a completely separate skillset and the developer who chose to invest time in MJML will have to start all over learninging the necessary skills if he needs to make email you can actually reply to.
  - iamacyborg 5y ago
    > Though you are technically correct, I just don't think this is a constructive attitude. I’ve worked in email for a decade, you do what you can with the tools you've been given. An email will never look perfect everywhere and while I agree with the general sentiment you’re talking about regarding folks learning proper email code rather than relying on tools, I also think the quality of emails sent is substantially higher now thanks to those tools.

tailspin2019 5y ago

I agree, I’ve had pretty good results using MJML now for several years (and I’ve been doing HTML emails since almost the 90’s!) This is a problem area where a good abstraction framework is highly useful in my opinion. That said I don’t specialise in email, it’s something I do “when I need to”. So if I was spending more time doing this sort thing, I might be more inclined to move down an abstraction level back to HTML/CSS and improve my knowledge of various client support. To just get the job done though, MJML is highly recommended. I see also a lot of mentions on this thread about replying to emails breaking the layout. Part of me thinks we’re fighting a losing battle here anyway so there is a limit to how much time it’s worth spending to make sure even replies are formatted nicely across all clients. But the other thing to consider is whether the email template is just trying to do too much. I try and keep my email templates very sparse, clean and simple and I generally haven’t had too many issues with reply/forward formatting (that I’m aware of).