4 ms·

are we under attack?

by vmception 6y ago

cma 6y ago
It's what happens when countries don't control their currency.
- mirekrusin 6y ago
  It's what happens when you use Java.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Um, what? We do in fact control our currency.
  - cma 6y ago
    This kind of thing is enabled by crypto. It could still happen without it out of pure malice, but ransomware had little incentive before since it was so hard to collect on.
    - dredmorbius 6y ago
      Disconnected payments and cash transfers have long been a thing. Crypto in this sense is just a novel indirect payments system. Currency control is a red herring.
      - cma 6y ago
        I don't think ransomware would be as prevalent, by an order of magnitude, without crypto. Nor with a govt controlled digital currency.
        dredmorbius 6y ago
        I definitely agree with the first. On the second, it would depend entirely on the design. And so long as one government crypto currency existed that was amenable to the practice, that should be sufficient. It's not as if lack of government endorsement is preventing usage now, and the fact that a cryptocurrency was sponsored by some foreign country should matter little.
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      Ah, I now see your point. For the record, I think it's a valid one. Ransom did happen with cash, but it was much riskier - physical delivery had to happen, and it led to the criminals.
colechristensen 6y ago
No, some idiots who are going to find themselves made examples of tried to do a ransomeware attack on another group of idiots who didn’t take computer security seriously enough who also happened to control a major piece of us infrastructure that they (claim) they shut down out of caution. Some people are going to prison, some other people are going to start taking infrastructure security more seriously, and fuel traders are going to make a lot of money. This is exactly how our brittle infrastructure gets fixed in the best imaginable way. Millions of people minority inconvenienced so that politicians will start regulating a poorly self regulating piece of essential infrastructure.
- bsder 6y ago
  > This is exactly how our brittle infrastructure gets fixed in the best imaginable way. Millions of people minority inconvenienced so that politicians will start regulating a poorly self regulating piece of essential infrastructure. I'll believe it when the next cold snap in Texas doesn't wipe out the grid. This happened in 2011. The feds even made a report. Nobody did shit. This happened in 2021. Nobody has done shit. This will happen again. Nobody will do shit. If doing shit costs money, nobody will do it. If you want it done, it needs to be law and the penalty needs to be jail, not fines.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    The consequence needs to be liability and the penalty insurance coverage. Nothing like an insurance company tripling your rates after a bad audit to motivate executives. Threat of jail invites regulatory capture and obfuscations to evade prosecutors (who are most often defeated by making crimes as convoluted as possible so they don’t think they can convince a jury)
    - dredmorbius 6y ago
      You and bsder are both right.
    - bsder 6y ago
      > The consequence needs to be liability and the penalty insurance coverage. No, because bankruptcy discharges the liability. And that's exactly what's happening in Texas right now is a bunch of companies are going bankrupt after having skimmed off the top. If it's fundamental infrastructure, there should be minimum rules and if you fail those rules you go to jail. People died because a bunch of executives decided that it was too expensive to winterize properly.
edrxty 6y ago
Probably not, but I will say the timing is suspicious. There is currently an ongoing shortage on fuel tanker drivers[1] as the pandemic depressed gas demand, so the drivers went elsewhere. You need special certs to haul thousands of gallons of boom down the highway and when those drivers leave, they can only be replaced my themselves. Add the geopolitical situations in a number of hostile countries that I need not list and you theoretically have a pretty good opening for keeping the US at arms length long enough to play games. All that said, I don't think the impact is great enough to actually be effective in this sense. The US has a decent strategic reserve for this kind of event. If the intent was to put the US in a poor starting position to prevent intervention in a foreign conflict it has not likely been sufficiently effective. If this interests you, Red Storm Rising is a rather solid work of fiction about a similar event. [1] https://kstp.com/business/experts-shortage-of-tanker-drivers-could-lead-to-shortage-of-fuel/6091263/ https://kstp.com/business/experts-shortage-of-tanker-drivers...
- Syonyk 6y ago
  > ...Red Storm Rising is a rather solid work of fiction about a similar event. Indeed it is! I believe some of the scenes in there were the result of table top war games played out, then written up. Tom Clancy's writings are both really good, and lately really disturbing. I just finished Rainbow Six, and similarities to 2020 abound.
dredmorbius 6y ago
We (the tech sector + tech users) have met the enemy and it is us.
sschueller 6y ago
No, but some area already trying to blame Russia and China. However it appears to be a standard ransomware attack which was probably targeted because of the size of the company (larger ransom) and the fact that this company has such a poor administrative IT infrastructure that they can't deal with this swiftly (Wipe, restore from backup).

are we under attack?

cma 6y ago

It's what happens when countries don't control their currency.

mirekrusin 6y ago
It's what happens when you use Java.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Um, what? We do in fact control our currency.
- cma 6y ago
  This kind of thing is enabled by crypto. It could still happen without it out of pure malice, but ransomware had little incentive before since it was so hard to collect on.
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    Disconnected payments and cash transfers have long been a thing. Crypto in this sense is just a novel indirect payments system. Currency control is a red herring.
    - cma 6y ago
      I don't think ransomware would be as prevalent, by an order of magnitude, without crypto. Nor with a govt controlled digital currency.
      - dredmorbius 6y ago
        I definitely agree with the first. On the second, it would depend entirely on the design. And so long as one government crypto currency existed that was amenable to the practice, that should be sufficient. It's not as if lack of government endorsement is preventing usage now, and the fact that a cryptocurrency was sponsored by some foreign country should matter little.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Ah, I now see your point. For the record, I think it's a valid one. Ransom did happen with cash, but it was much riskier - physical delivery had to happen, and it led to the criminals.

colechristensen 6y ago

No, some idiots who are going to find themselves made examples of tried to do a ransomeware attack on another group of idiots who didn’t take computer security seriously enough who also happened to control a major piece of us infrastructure that they (claim) they shut down out of caution. Some people are going to prison, some other people are going to start taking infrastructure security more seriously, and fuel traders are going to make a lot of money. This is exactly how our brittle infrastructure gets fixed in the best imaginable way. Millions of people minority inconvenienced so that politicians will start regulating a poorly self regulating piece of essential infrastructure.

bsder 6y ago
> This is exactly how our brittle infrastructure gets fixed in the best imaginable way. Millions of people minority inconvenienced so that politicians will start regulating a poorly self regulating piece of essential infrastructure. I'll believe it when the next cold snap in Texas doesn't wipe out the grid. This happened in 2011. The feds even made a report. Nobody did shit. This happened in 2021. Nobody has done shit. This will happen again. Nobody will do shit. If doing shit costs money, nobody will do it. If you want it done, it needs to be law and the penalty needs to be jail, not fines.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  The consequence needs to be liability and the penalty insurance coverage. Nothing like an insurance company tripling your rates after a bad audit to motivate executives. Threat of jail invites regulatory capture and obfuscations to evade prosecutors (who are most often defeated by making crimes as convoluted as possible so they don’t think they can convince a jury)
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    You and bsder are both right.
  - bsder 6y ago
    > The consequence needs to be liability and the penalty insurance coverage. No, because bankruptcy discharges the liability. And that's exactly what's happening in Texas right now is a bunch of companies are going bankrupt after having skimmed off the top. If it's fundamental infrastructure, there should be minimum rules and if you fail those rules you go to jail. People died because a bunch of executives decided that it was too expensive to winterize properly.

edrxty 6y ago

Probably not, but I will say the timing is suspicious. There is currently an ongoing shortage on fuel tanker drivers[1] as the pandemic depressed gas demand, so the drivers went elsewhere. You need special certs to haul thousands of gallons of boom down the highway and when those drivers leave, they can only be replaced my themselves. Add the geopolitical situations in a number of hostile countries that I need not list and you theoretically have a pretty good opening for keeping the US at arms length long enough to play games. All that said, I don't think the impact is great enough to actually be effective in this sense. The US has a decent strategic reserve for this kind of event. If the intent was to put the US in a poor starting position to prevent intervention in a foreign conflict it has not likely been sufficiently effective. If this interests you, Red Storm Rising is a rather solid work of fiction about a similar event. [1] https://kstp.com/business/experts-shortage-of-tanker-drivers-could-lead-to-shortage-of-fuel/6091263/ https://kstp.com/business/experts-shortage-of-tanker-drivers...

Syonyk 6y ago
> ...Red Storm Rising is a rather solid work of fiction about a similar event. Indeed it is! I believe some of the scenes in there were the result of table top war games played out, then written up. Tom Clancy's writings are both really good, and lately really disturbing. I just finished Rainbow Six, and similarities to 2020 abound.

dredmorbius 6y ago

We (the tech sector + tech users) have met the enemy and it is us.

sschueller 6y ago

No, but some area already trying to blame Russia and China. However it appears to be a standard ransomware attack which was probably targeted because of the size of the company (larger ransom) and the fact that this company has such a poor administrative IT infrastructure that they can't deal with this swiftly (Wipe, restore from backup).