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"Debunking" in the modern sense mostly just means calling someone an idiot for having a different opinion than you, with an added dose of self-assured smugness

"Debunking" in the modern sense mostly just means calling someone an idiot for having a different opinion than you, with an added dose of self-assured smugness because obviously "science" and "the experts" and "everybody knows" are on your side. Debunking is bad enough when it actually comes from a place of real science, because even then the self-congratulatory nature of it makes people want to punch you rather than engage in a conversation. But when "the science" is really just a bunch of anecdotes, propaganda and Just-So Stories people in certain social circles keep repeating to each other ad nauseam, it becomes a complete joke.

kiba 5y ago
People are not convinced by facts and science, but by people in their trust networks. No amount of truth will ever convince someone who is predisposed to not believe you.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > People are not convinced by facts and science, but by people in their trust networks. This is something I strongly believe and I wish more people thought about. Do you happen to know if we have a lot of scientific evidence for it?
  - mistermann 5y ago
    At best there are some studies that show patterns, but that doesn't stop people from believing it and spreading the gospel on forums - before long, it's an axiom and no proof is needed. Omniscience has become extremely popular in the last few years as well, and I'm pretty sure there's no evidence for that at all (but I'm speculating about that, perhaps there is something out there).
    - mistermann 5y ago
      Testing 1,2,3.
pmoriarty 5y ago
That's not debunking, that's dismissing. I'm not ashamed to admit that I've dismissed plenty of people in my life. I don't have time to argue with and debunk Holocaust deniers and Neo-Nazis, nor do I think it would be productive, because in my experience almost all such people are way beyond reasoning with. Also, when such people "debate", they're often just trying to spread their propaganda to bystanders, and not engaging in any kind of good-faith argument with you. Finally, I recognize that if these people ever get power they will crush, in a very literal way, using violence, anyone who doesn't agree with them, who is not "pure" enough for them, or who stands in their way.
- Applejinx 5y ago
  I find that's a vital realization to have. It's also more than a bit sad: anybody from ANY political angle who's desperate enough will sink to this level. That said, there's some political angles that I see a lot of this from. Nazis lie, is the way I frame it to myself. I try to recognize the tells, the techniques that are being used, the pivoting and debating attitude, the historical precedents, if possible the escalation as masks are dropped and the ideological payload is hinted at or delivered. There's always a payload. Everything else is the game. Nazis lie. I'm interested in identifying them, not debating them. If I can identify them, I can identify their payload and odds are it's something I'm going to want to walk away from, and I'll do just that.
  - galaxyLogic 5y ago
    > Nazis lie. True. Nazis are ready to use violence to gain dominion over others. Lying is a form of violence, so it just makes sense for them to use it. It is easier for them to lie than use physical violence and preferably they don't get caught. Just use their power to influence. But I wonder if the paper perhaps did not consider this:: Even though correcting someone can make them defensive, the correction might be very helpful to all the other readers of the same discussion, so they don't get mislead.
    - swader999 5y ago
      Have you ever met a Nazi, a flat earther or a white supremacist? I never have, not online either. People throw these terms around like they are on every corner.

kiba 5y ago

People are not convinced by facts and science, but by people in their trust networks. No amount of truth will ever convince someone who is predisposed to not believe you.

guerrilla 5y ago
> People are not convinced by facts and science, but by people in their trust networks. This is something I strongly believe and I wish more people thought about. Do you happen to know if we have a lot of scientific evidence for it?
- mistermann 5y ago
  At best there are some studies that show patterns, but that doesn't stop people from believing it and spreading the gospel on forums - before long, it's an axiom and no proof is needed. Omniscience has become extremely popular in the last few years as well, and I'm pretty sure there's no evidence for that at all (but I'm speculating about that, perhaps there is something out there).
  - mistermann 5y ago
    Testing 1,2,3.

pmoriarty 5y ago

That's not debunking, that's dismissing. I'm not ashamed to admit that I've dismissed plenty of people in my life. I don't have time to argue with and debunk Holocaust deniers and Neo-Nazis, nor do I think it would be productive, because in my experience almost all such people are way beyond reasoning with. Also, when such people "debate", they're often just trying to spread their propaganda to bystanders, and not engaging in any kind of good-faith argument with you. Finally, I recognize that if these people ever get power they will crush, in a very literal way, using violence, anyone who doesn't agree with them, who is not "pure" enough for them, or who stands in their way.

Applejinx 5y ago
I find that's a vital realization to have. It's also more than a bit sad: anybody from ANY political angle who's desperate enough will sink to this level. That said, there's some political angles that I see a lot of this from. Nazis lie, is the way I frame it to myself. I try to recognize the tells, the techniques that are being used, the pivoting and debating attitude, the historical precedents, if possible the escalation as masks are dropped and the ideological payload is hinted at or delivered. There's always a payload. Everything else is the game. Nazis lie. I'm interested in identifying them, not debating them. If I can identify them, I can identify their payload and odds are it's something I'm going to want to walk away from, and I'll do just that.
- galaxyLogic 5y ago
  > Nazis lie. True. Nazis are ready to use violence to gain dominion over others. Lying is a form of violence, so it just makes sense for them to use it. It is easier for them to lie than use physical violence and preferably they don't get caught. Just use their power to influence. But I wonder if the paper perhaps did not consider this:: Even though correcting someone can make them defensive, the correction might be very helpful to all the other readers of the same discussion, so they don't get mislead.
  - swader999 5y ago
    Have you ever met a Nazi, a flat earther or a white supremacist? I never have, not online either. People throw these terms around like they are on every corner.