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I don't really know how I'm going to approach this once my child is old enough to use devices but I think one might be able to argue that it makes sense for the

by tjr225 5y ago

I don't really know how I'm going to approach this once my child is old enough to use devices but I think one might be able to argue that it makes sense for them to learn how to interact with the world as it exists, rather than a fantasy world where devices and the internet doesn't exist.

wreath 5y ago
> rather than a fantasy world where devices and the internet doesn't exist. The fantasy world is also the one that the likes of Facebook want to lead us to.
hosh 5y ago
My wife and I decided on a no-social media policy for our kids. We have a teenager and a 5 month old. Our teenager has a phone we found that is a locked down Android, and has no internet (no wifi or 4g/5g). It is just a phone, with multimedia text, and non-network enabled calendar, clock. There is no app store. My daughter is autistic. Our problems with the phone has more to do with her feeling like we are cutting her off of connecting with people she clings to, triggering some childhood history. I have no idea what will happen when our neurotypical son becomes a teenager. There is much more to life than just what are on devices, and I have a general idea on how to approach this. I have been studying, and to some extent, applying regenerative paradigms. A good deal of that will involve the kids into the natural cycle of life. To viscerally experience where their food comes from, and where it goes. How to connect with another living being as a whole being in an ecosystem and community, whether that being is a human, animal, or plant. I am going to teach them the ethical framework, “care for people”, “care for land”, “fair share”. Technology, then, is thoughtfully applied within that context. What that means, I am still discovering for myself. But I have already made some progress on that —- what Christopher Alexander really meant by pattern languages and a timeless way of building; what Smalltalk and Hypercard had in common, why we had turned our back to it, and maybe it is time to use it; the philosophy of Free Software and how it is different than open source, and why it matters more than basic rights and liberty; how sandstorm.io enables community-oriented and local platforms. It has not all gelled together for me yet, but I know something is there.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  Somewhat ironic that you don't let your children use social media but here you are posting on a social media site.
  - enriquec 5y ago
    also remarkably ironic that they seem to want their kids to value life outside of technology but then proceed to say that software project licensing is more important than "basic rights and liberty" - completely out-of-touch
  - booleandilemma 5y ago
    Not really. Kids are not adults. They’re two separate categories of people. Maybe OP drinks alcohol but they don’t let their kids drink it. Maybe they own firearms but they don’t let their kids wield them. Maybe they watch movies with violence and gore but they don’t want their kids watching them. etc. There is a double standard, and there should be, imo.
    - numpad0 5y ago
      Actually from biological standpoint there are no clear lines between kids and adults. That distinction is post-industrial revolution cultural one.
      - booleandilemma 5y ago
        I’m not a biologist, but isn’t puberty still a thing?
      - jkinudsjknds 5y ago
        Two groups can be very different without a clear line delineating them.
      - coddle-hark 5y ago
        There are no clear lines between summer and winter but sandals stop being appropriate footwear at some point nevertheless.
drewzero1 5y ago
This is the conclusion I'm starting to come to as well. On the one hand there are things they shouldn't be exposed to until they can handle it themselves, but on the other hand they're going to learn stuff through friends or alternate routes of access. I'm not sure how I'm going to teach them how to have a healthy relationship with technology, besides trying to model one myself.
mixmastamyk 5y ago
The "real" world also consists of filth in all its myriad forms. Will you be exposing your kids to these experiences, so they can learn to interact with them as well? These platforms have very little to teach, so it's not like there is useful tradeoff being made in any case. It's simply an often toxic form of entertainment, worse than television imho.
- gmadsen 5y ago
  yes? if they don't know that predators exist or what drugs are, that is setting them up for dramatic failure
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    There's a difference between knowing they exist and hands-on experience at a young age. Do you think being on Facebook, et al is a proper course in these subjects? How did you learn about them in the days before social media? The idea that corporate surveillance and conditioning is somehow required for growing up is silly and dangerous to the kids themselves.
    - gmadsen 5y ago
      besides the surveilence part, yes I do. social acceptance is a huge part of being a teen, no matter the social circle. I was on irc throughout my early teens.
      - mixmastamyk 5y ago
        IRC in the old days is only tangentially analogous to today's sophisticated addiction services. I suggest watching the Social Dillema on Netflix for an idea. Here's a decent article I recently read on the subject, though there are probably better ones: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-lonely-burden-of-todays-teenage-girls-11565883328 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-lonely-burden-of-todays-tee... Perhaps my argument is not clear enough, but it feels like we are not arguing the same point. I have no problem with technology, simply that kids should not be the product. There are plenty of higher-quality alternatives, just like there are alternatives to broadcast television and McDonalds.

by tjr225 5y ago

wreath 5y ago

> rather than a fantasy world where devices and the internet doesn't exist. The fantasy world is also the one that the likes of Facebook want to lead us to.

hosh 5y ago

My wife and I decided on a no-social media policy for our kids. We have a teenager and a 5 month old. Our teenager has a phone we found that is a locked down Android, and has no internet (no wifi or 4g/5g). It is just a phone, with multimedia text, and non-network enabled calendar, clock. There is no app store. My daughter is autistic. Our problems with the phone has more to do with her feeling like we are cutting her off of connecting with people she clings to, triggering some childhood history. I have no idea what will happen when our neurotypical son becomes a teenager. There is much more to life than just what are on devices, and I have a general idea on how to approach this. I have been studying, and to some extent, applying regenerative paradigms. A good deal of that will involve the kids into the natural cycle of life. To viscerally experience where their food comes from, and where it goes. How to connect with another living being as a whole being in an ecosystem and community, whether that being is a human, animal, or plant. I am going to teach them the ethical framework, “care for people”, “care for land”, “fair share”. Technology, then, is thoughtfully applied within that context. What that means, I am still discovering for myself. But I have already made some progress on that —- what Christopher Alexander really meant by pattern languages and a timeless way of building; what Smalltalk and Hypercard had in common, why we had turned our back to it, and maybe it is time to use it; the philosophy of Free Software and how it is different than open source, and why it matters more than basic rights and liberty; how sandstorm.io enables community-oriented and local platforms. It has not all gelled together for me yet, but I know something is there.

thehappypm 5y ago
Somewhat ironic that you don't let your children use social media but here you are posting on a social media site.
- enriquec 5y ago
  also remarkably ironic that they seem to want their kids to value life outside of technology but then proceed to say that software project licensing is more important than "basic rights and liberty" - completely out-of-touch
- booleandilemma 5y ago
  Not really. Kids are not adults. They’re two separate categories of people. Maybe OP drinks alcohol but they don’t let their kids drink it. Maybe they own firearms but they don’t let their kids wield them. Maybe they watch movies with violence and gore but they don’t want their kids watching them. etc. There is a double standard, and there should be, imo.
  - numpad0 5y ago
    Actually from biological standpoint there are no clear lines between kids and adults. That distinction is post-industrial revolution cultural one.
    - booleandilemma 5y ago
      I’m not a biologist, but isn’t puberty still a thing?
    - jkinudsjknds 5y ago
      Two groups can be very different without a clear line delineating them.
    - coddle-hark 5y ago
      There are no clear lines between summer and winter but sandals stop being appropriate footwear at some point nevertheless.

drewzero1 5y ago

This is the conclusion I'm starting to come to as well. On the one hand there are things they shouldn't be exposed to until they can handle it themselves, but on the other hand they're going to learn stuff through friends or alternate routes of access. I'm not sure how I'm going to teach them how to have a healthy relationship with technology, besides trying to model one myself.

mixmastamyk 5y ago

The "real" world also consists of filth in all its myriad forms. Will you be exposing your kids to these experiences, so they can learn to interact with them as well? These platforms have very little to teach, so it's not like there is useful tradeoff being made in any case. It's simply an often toxic form of entertainment, worse than television imho.

gmadsen 5y ago
yes? if they don't know that predators exist or what drugs are, that is setting them up for dramatic failure
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  There's a difference between knowing they exist and hands-on experience at a young age. Do you think being on Facebook, et al is a proper course in these subjects? How did you learn about them in the days before social media? The idea that corporate surveillance and conditioning is somehow required for growing up is silly and dangerous to the kids themselves.
  - gmadsen 5y ago
    besides the surveilence part, yes I do. social acceptance is a huge part of being a teen, no matter the social circle. I was on irc throughout my early teens.
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      IRC in the old days is only tangentially analogous to today's sophisticated addiction services. I suggest watching the Social Dillema on Netflix for an idea. Here's a decent article I recently read on the subject, though there are probably better ones: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-lonely-burden-of-todays-teenage-girls-11565883328 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-lonely-burden-of-todays-tee... Perhaps my argument is not clear enough, but it feels like we are not arguing the same point. I have no problem with technology, simply that kids should not be the product. There are plenty of higher-quality alternatives, just like there are alternatives to broadcast television and McDonalds.