4 ms·

I've worked on teams historically that did pairing (even pairing all day), and mobbing all day, and I don't get the hate. If the main issue is burnout, then wh

I've worked on teams historically that did pairing (even pairing all day), and mobbing all day, and I don't get the hate. If the main issue is burnout, then what's up? Even working solo you can burn out, so I don't think that's a valid argument unless someone can convince me that specifically pairing is causing the burn out. The biggest thing is you need a team that can trust and support each other.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> unless someone can convince me that specifically pairing is causing the burn out If someone tells you something is causing them anxiety and stress can't you just accept that rather than requiring to be 'convinced'? You say you want a team that supports and trusts... yet you don't believe people when they say something's causing them pain.
- mrozbarry 5y ago
  It's not that I don't trust the burnout, but I want to know what aspect is causing burnout. Is it talking all day? Is there stress because someone is watching you work? Are you not taking enough breaks? These things aren't all specific to pairing, which means that pairing wouldn't always be the issue. Sure, some people are just not the type of people that are good at pairing, and that's valid, but it's important to identify the problem. That's where trust and support comes in. If you can't talk about why you are feeling burnt out with your team, then there is a deeper issue that your team needs to figure out.
  - azhu 5y ago
    The author explains it well IMO. Mentally computing an appropriate response to present to another human takes energy. The more different that human than you, the more energy. There'll be some outliers that are inordinately drained by pairing. I agree that if someone can't talk about why they're feeling stressed by their work environment then it's a deeper issue than just a personal one. I would point to leaders whose lack of understanding of higher order truths about humans, like that humans are different and space needs to be permanently held for those differences to be surfaced and coalesced, can cause their well intended questioning to come across as personal attack, thereby incentivizing the team member to stay quiet. Trust is the end state of solving a communication problem. But it's a systemic quality and needs to be cultivated from the system as a whole, not any one member.
nicoburns 5y ago
> unless someone can convince me that specifically pairing is causing the burn out. For many people, socialising is energy-draining. Thus pair programming is extra tiring. While I do enjoy pair programming in some circumstances - for particularly tricky problems, or for mentoring - I would struggle (to the point that I would no longer like or be effective at my job) if I had to do it all-day every day. I can believe that some people can be productive with the distraction of someone else constantly there, but I'm nowhere near as productive as I am working on my own.
- mrozbarry 5y ago
  The whole team definitely needs to buy into the full-day pairing/mobbing. I'm definitely more on the introverted side of the scale, and I can handle things as a daily thing, but I do need a break once an hour or so, and that's the sort of thing your pair-team needs to figure out. And another thing that's super important to talk about is the metric you mention: > can believe that some people can be productive with the distraction of someone else constantly there, but I'm nowhere near as productive as I am working on my own. Productivity is an interesting thing in software. What is productivity? Is it writing code fast? Is that the most important thing you can do for your company/client? Pairing and mobbing aren't necessarily performance-oriented, but more on transfer of knowledge. If you work in a company that just wants pure churn of new code without a large amount of knowledge transfer between members, then pairing is just a gimmick and not useful to that company. This is really a case of "use the right tool for the job" - pairing and mobbing won't always make sense if it conflicts with the goals and values of the company.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> unless someone can convince me that specifically pairing is causing the burn out If someone tells you something is causing them anxiety and stress can't you just accept that rather than requiring to be 'convinced'? You say you want a team that supports and trusts... yet you don't believe people when they say something's causing them pain.

mrozbarry 5y ago
It's not that I don't trust the burnout, but I want to know what aspect is causing burnout. Is it talking all day? Is there stress because someone is watching you work? Are you not taking enough breaks? These things aren't all specific to pairing, which means that pairing wouldn't always be the issue. Sure, some people are just not the type of people that are good at pairing, and that's valid, but it's important to identify the problem. That's where trust and support comes in. If you can't talk about why you are feeling burnt out with your team, then there is a deeper issue that your team needs to figure out.
- azhu 5y ago
  The author explains it well IMO. Mentally computing an appropriate response to present to another human takes energy. The more different that human than you, the more energy. There'll be some outliers that are inordinately drained by pairing. I agree that if someone can't talk about why they're feeling stressed by their work environment then it's a deeper issue than just a personal one. I would point to leaders whose lack of understanding of higher order truths about humans, like that humans are different and space needs to be permanently held for those differences to be surfaced and coalesced, can cause their well intended questioning to come across as personal attack, thereby incentivizing the team member to stay quiet. Trust is the end state of solving a communication problem. But it's a systemic quality and needs to be cultivated from the system as a whole, not any one member.

nicoburns 5y ago

> unless someone can convince me that specifically pairing is causing the burn out. For many people, socialising is energy-draining. Thus pair programming is extra tiring. While I do enjoy pair programming in some circumstances - for particularly tricky problems, or for mentoring - I would struggle (to the point that I would no longer like or be effective at my job) if I had to do it all-day every day. I can believe that some people can be productive with the distraction of someone else constantly there, but I'm nowhere near as productive as I am working on my own.

mrozbarry 5y ago
The whole team definitely needs to buy into the full-day pairing/mobbing. I'm definitely more on the introverted side of the scale, and I can handle things as a daily thing, but I do need a break once an hour or so, and that's the sort of thing your pair-team needs to figure out. And another thing that's super important to talk about is the metric you mention: > can believe that some people can be productive with the distraction of someone else constantly there, but I'm nowhere near as productive as I am working on my own. Productivity is an interesting thing in software. What is productivity? Is it writing code fast? Is that the most important thing you can do for your company/client? Pairing and mobbing aren't necessarily performance-oriented, but more on transfer of knowledge. If you work in a company that just wants pure churn of new code without a large amount of knowledge transfer between members, then pairing is just a gimmick and not useful to that company. This is really a case of "use the right tool for the job" - pairing and mobbing won't always make sense if it conflicts with the goals and values of the company.