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The real issue with Bitcoin is tether. Tether printing is practically responsible for almost all the gains in Bitcoin. Just look at Tether volume versus Bitcoin

The real issue with Bitcoin is tether. Tether printing is practically responsible for almost all the gains in Bitcoin. Just look at Tether volume versus Bitcoin volume and tell me you trust bitcoins valuation when it's backed by make belief tethers. When you can print make belief dollars, in volumes that were never proven to exist, and pretend trading them for Bitcoin is the same as trading dollars, then of course Bitcoin can arbitrarily rise. The scale of the scam is huge and regulators completely miss it. The day regulators finally ban tether (because printing dollars should be illegal), you're going to see Bitcoin crash spectacularly. The reason Bitcoin defies all expectations is because it was never supported by real dollars.

bob33212 5y ago
I'm the furthest thing from a technical analysis expert of price movement, but the BTC chart looks manipulated to me. I assumed at first that it was just people trading BTC between themselves to move the market, but this theory makes more sense. BTC miners are extracting USD from their mining, while the price is controlled by other coins printing and buying BTC. New buyers of BTC are providing the cashflow into the system.
- shlant 5y ago
  What does "manipulated" mean to you? What does a "manipulated" chart look like? (I'm not being cheeky, I am just trying to get a grasp on your perspective)
  - roofwellhams 5y ago
    That's what I always ask when someone claims manipulation
  - bob33212 5y ago
    For the past 8 weeks it has traded in a 10% band. Why have none of the events or momentum moved the price by more than 10%. You can make the case that Tesla selling some wasn't a big deal. But with everything happening over the past 2 months there should have been at least 1 swing up or down by a lot.
    - shlant 5y ago
      > there should have been at least 1 swing up or down by a lot. says who? why is this your criteria for "manipulation"? Are you saying that it's only been manipulated for the last 8 weeks?
      - bob33212 5y ago
        If you Google "statistical anomalies and fraud" you will see several examples of where public data pointed to corruption without hard evidence. ( Madoff, Putin election )
        shlant 5y ago
        what does that have to do with crypto? elections are not markets. Where did you get this 10% swing idea from? I bet I could find 100's of examples of equities that trade within a 10% band for much longer periods of time
        bob33212 5y ago
        Elections are markets. Markets of ideas.
banbanbang 5y ago
It is far worse than this. The complex is leverage on top of leverage. They’re pledging btc/eth as collateral to buy other cryptos. And in tether’s case it’s quite literally a circlejerk. Shitcoins exist to feed btc and btc exists to feed shitcoins. You can’t make this up. The greatest ponzi in human history.
shlant 5y ago
> "Tether printing is practically responsible for almost all the gains in Bitcoin" It was a meme in the crypto community that when you see tether being printed, you long. Maybe it was true at some point that tether was propping up the market or maybe not fully backed[0], but AFAIK they are now doing audits[1] and transparency reports[2]. > "The day regulators finally ban tether" I'm not sure how you would go about banning a cryptocurrency (it's been tried 100's of times) but, again, people have been saying something like this about tether forever. Every time someone tries and fails, it just gains more legitimacy (and is no longer the only stablecoin). FYI I am in no way a BTC maxi/fanboi, but this kind of narrative has been the same since the beginning of tether and everyone so far has been wrong and the chance of a "spectacular crash" has become more and more unlikely 0. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settlement-with-new-york-attorney-general.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settle... 1. https://www.coindesk.com/tether-first-attestation https://www.coindesk.com/tether-first-attestation 2. https://wallet.tether.to/transparency https://wallet.tether.to/transparency
- majewsky 5y ago
  > I'm not sure how you would go about banning a cryptocurrency (it's been tried 100's of times) The same way we ban heroine. Or murder. We just make trading cryptocurrencies illegal and prosecute people who are found doing it. Many IT people are biased by their work into thinking that any solution to a problem is a failure if it does not solve 100% of the problem. But in practice, most solutions are good enough if they solve 99.9% of the problem. Regarding cryptocurrency, making it illegal would mean that no sane company would touch it with a ten-foot pole, which would not just hamper legal usage of cryptocurrency, but also illegal usage. (For instance, ransomware would not be able to have their victims pay in bitcoin if the victims don't have a legal way of exchanging legal tender for bitcoin.)
  - shlant 5y ago
    > The same way we ban heroine. Or murder Our attempt to ban heroin (war on drugs) has been a massive failure[1] only replaced/made worse by prescription opioids[2]. Not a good example. Murder is not something that really needs "banning" to stop the vast majority of people from committing it. The amount of people willing to use crypto is not comparable to the amount of people willing to murder (illegal or not). Not a good example. If you want a semi-comparable example, take the attempt to make torrenting/pirating illegal. Look how that turned out. > We just make trading cryptocurrencies illegal and prosecute people who are found doing it Good luck with that. No other country has made much of an impact and it would require an enormous amount of resources to persecute ordinary people. > no sane company would touch it with a ten-foot pole > if the victims don't have a legal way of exchanging legal tender for bitcoin There will always be another country willing to host exchanges. VPN's exist. You will never get all governments to ban crypto. Again, you are just listing ideas that have been tried and failed. > but also illegal usage. You think making crypto illegal... would stop people already using it for illegal reasons? They would be ok with one illegal act, but not another less valid one? 1. https://www.samhsa.gov/data//sites/default/files/report_1943/images/image_file_213_BlockImageOne_1509868857.png https://www.samhsa.gov/data//sites/default/files/report_1943... 2. https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/prescription-opioids-heroin/prescription-opioid-use-risk-factor-heroin-use https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/pres...
248ff 5y ago
If they printed more Tether than there is demand for tether wouldn't the price for Tether-to-USD tank ?
gruez 5y ago
>Just look at Tether volume versus Bitcoin volume and tell me you trust bitcoins valuation when it's backed by make belief tethers. That's consistent with tether being "printed" (ie. issued without dollars backing them), but it's also consistent with dollar inflows to bitcoin exchanges that use tether. Without further evidence that's not indicative of anything.
- bronzeage 5y ago
  Financial exchanges need to prove to you that trades really do happen with real money at the prices they say it happens, and that the order book isn't cooked. If I were to open an exchange for shitcoin, and show you pretty graphs and fake orders to buy shitcoin, would you believe me when I tell you that's what shitcoin is worth? no. Trades with tether are exactly that: trades with make belief dollars. Bitfinex prints tethers and shows you orders for trades in tether, while most of these trades are probably bitfinex trading it's make belief currency with itself. You should be the one requiring evidence that the trades are real.
Black101 5y ago
It's funny that you talk about real dollars and their backing.

bob33212 5y ago

I'm the furthest thing from a technical analysis expert of price movement, but the BTC chart looks manipulated to me. I assumed at first that it was just people trading BTC between themselves to move the market, but this theory makes more sense. BTC miners are extracting USD from their mining, while the price is controlled by other coins printing and buying BTC. New buyers of BTC are providing the cashflow into the system.

shlant 5y ago
What does "manipulated" mean to you? What does a "manipulated" chart look like? (I'm not being cheeky, I am just trying to get a grasp on your perspective)
- roofwellhams 5y ago
  That's what I always ask when someone claims manipulation
- bob33212 5y ago
  For the past 8 weeks it has traded in a 10% band. Why have none of the events or momentum moved the price by more than 10%. You can make the case that Tesla selling some wasn't a big deal. But with everything happening over the past 2 months there should have been at least 1 swing up or down by a lot.
  - shlant 5y ago
    > there should have been at least 1 swing up or down by a lot. says who? why is this your criteria for "manipulation"? Are you saying that it's only been manipulated for the last 8 weeks?
    - bob33212 5y ago
      If you Google "statistical anomalies and fraud" you will see several examples of where public data pointed to corruption without hard evidence. ( Madoff, Putin election )
      - shlant 5y ago
        what does that have to do with crypto? elections are not markets. Where did you get this 10% swing idea from? I bet I could find 100's of examples of equities that trade within a 10% band for much longer periods of time
        bob33212 5y ago
        Elections are markets. Markets of ideas.

banbanbang 5y ago

It is far worse than this. The complex is leverage on top of leverage. They’re pledging btc/eth as collateral to buy other cryptos. And in tether’s case it’s quite literally a circlejerk. Shitcoins exist to feed btc and btc exists to feed shitcoins. You can’t make this up. The greatest ponzi in human history.

shlant 5y ago

> "Tether printing is practically responsible for almost all the gains in Bitcoin" It was a meme in the crypto community that when you see tether being printed, you long. Maybe it was true at some point that tether was propping up the market or maybe not fully backed[0], but AFAIK they are now doing audits[1] and transparency reports[2]. > "The day regulators finally ban tether" I'm not sure how you would go about banning a cryptocurrency (it's been tried 100's of times) but, again, people have been saying something like this about tether forever. Every time someone tries and fails, it just gains more legitimacy (and is no longer the only stablecoin). FYI I am in no way a BTC maxi/fanboi, but this kind of narrative has been the same since the beginning of tether and everyone so far has been wrong and the chance of a "spectacular crash" has become more and more unlikely 0. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settlement-with-new-york-attorney-general.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/23/tether-bitfinex-reach-settle... 1. https://www.coindesk.com/tether-first-attestation https://www.coindesk.com/tether-first-attestation 2. https://wallet.tether.to/transparency https://wallet.tether.to/transparency

majewsky 5y ago
> I'm not sure how you would go about banning a cryptocurrency (it's been tried 100's of times) The same way we ban heroine. Or murder. We just make trading cryptocurrencies illegal and prosecute people who are found doing it. Many IT people are biased by their work into thinking that any solution to a problem is a failure if it does not solve 100% of the problem. But in practice, most solutions are good enough if they solve 99.9% of the problem. Regarding cryptocurrency, making it illegal would mean that no sane company would touch it with a ten-foot pole, which would not just hamper legal usage of cryptocurrency, but also illegal usage. (For instance, ransomware would not be able to have their victims pay in bitcoin if the victims don't have a legal way of exchanging legal tender for bitcoin.)
- shlant 5y ago
  > The same way we ban heroine. Or murder Our attempt to ban heroin (war on drugs) has been a massive failure[1] only replaced/made worse by prescription opioids[2]. Not a good example. Murder is not something that really needs "banning" to stop the vast majority of people from committing it. The amount of people willing to use crypto is not comparable to the amount of people willing to murder (illegal or not). Not a good example. If you want a semi-comparable example, take the attempt to make torrenting/pirating illegal. Look how that turned out. > We just make trading cryptocurrencies illegal and prosecute people who are found doing it Good luck with that. No other country has made much of an impact and it would require an enormous amount of resources to persecute ordinary people. > no sane company would touch it with a ten-foot pole > if the victims don't have a legal way of exchanging legal tender for bitcoin There will always be another country willing to host exchanges. VPN's exist. You will never get all governments to ban crypto. Again, you are just listing ideas that have been tried and failed. > but also illegal usage. You think making crypto illegal... would stop people already using it for illegal reasons? They would be ok with one illegal act, but not another less valid one? 1. https://www.samhsa.gov/data//sites/default/files/report_1943/images/image_file_213_BlockImageOne_1509868857.png https://www.samhsa.gov/data//sites/default/files/report_1943... 2. https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/prescription-opioids-heroin/prescription-opioid-use-risk-factor-heroin-use https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/pres...

248ff 5y ago

If they printed more Tether than there is demand for tether wouldn't the price for Tether-to-USD tank ?

gruez 5y ago

>Just look at Tether volume versus Bitcoin volume and tell me you trust bitcoins valuation when it's backed by make belief tethers. That's consistent with tether being "printed" (ie. issued without dollars backing them), but it's also consistent with dollar inflows to bitcoin exchanges that use tether. Without further evidence that's not indicative of anything.

bronzeage 5y ago
Financial exchanges need to prove to you that trades really do happen with real money at the prices they say it happens, and that the order book isn't cooked. If I were to open an exchange for shitcoin, and show you pretty graphs and fake orders to buy shitcoin, would you believe me when I tell you that's what shitcoin is worth? no. Trades with tether are exactly that: trades with make belief dollars. Bitfinex prints tethers and shows you orders for trades in tether, while most of these trades are probably bitfinex trading it's make belief currency with itself. You should be the one requiring evidence that the trades are real.

Black101 5y ago

It's funny that you talk about real dollars and their backing.