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I guess I don’t get it. What is it you want to do instead of working? Suppose I can produce the required output in less time (say 20h per week) because I’m jus

by jpttsn 5y ago

I guess I don’t get it. What is it you want to do instead of working? Suppose I can produce the required output in less time (say 20h per week) because I’m just so smart. Then why would I spend the other 20h just watching TV? Why not produce up to twice the output by working 40h? If your answer is “I get paid the same regardless of my output,”then that’s the wrong terms for so smart a person. Employment is for those who (unlike you) aren’t confident about their output capacity and have to resort to selling their input capacity. If your answer is “I don’t need that much money” then I guess the counter is “I don’t need that much recreation”.

langitbiru 5y ago
Entrepreneurship, taking care your parents, raising kids, passion (writing novels), working out, and so on.
soneca 5y ago
You lack a lot of imagination if you think that the only thing someone would do with an extra 20 hours a week is watching TV.
- jpttsn 5y ago
  I don’t judge, but I rarely met anyone who spends their extra 20h on anything good. It’s mostly: - TV/video games/Facebook - drinking/drugs/gluttony whether as thrill-seeking or sedatives - a creative “hobby” (i.e. another job that they’re not good at) - “traveling” (larping to farm for Instagram validation) I just find it more interesting to pursue my actual trade. Of course we all need some amount of rest to stay sharp, but excesses of leisure never seem to produce much, not even happiness. YMMV.
  - soneca 5y ago
    When you say that hobby is ”another job they’re not good at” you are obviously judging them. Most of your examples are dripping with judgment. I am not sure why you even bothered to start your comment with ”I don’t judge, but...” When you say ”I don’t get it...”, my interpretation is that you lack empathy toward people that face life differently from you. Not that is any sort of puzzling behavior, it’s just you failing to make an effort to understand other people.
    - jpttsn 5y ago
      I honestly don’t judge: zero negative feelings about anyone spending their time watching TV. If you read that between the lines, maybe it betrays your own disdain. My observation is merely that a) people rarely seem “happy” in proportion to leisure time spent, b) most people’s leisure time consists of trite activities, steered by indulgent appetites, and is easy prey for others to profit off. The thread at large makes it sound like all these philosopher kings would pursue their true calling and have wonderful adventures, living life to its fullest, if their boss never wanted them to work late. Maybe a warmer more empathetic person would refrain from pointing this out. Would people be better off not hearing uncomfortable opinions? A consequentialist might approve of some tough love at times.
      - soneca 5y ago
        The fundamental difference is that what you refer as ”uncomfortable opinions” are, for me, plain misunderstandings of why other people do stuff. My perspective is that viewing hobbies as ”another job” is plain and fundamentally wrong. They are something else entirely. The same as viewing traveling as ” larping to farm for Instagram validation”. It’s just wrong. I am not reading between the lines, I am reading the lines that you wrote. Accusing me of that ”betraying my own disdain” is just silly. Obviously you have a very high opinion of yourself. I don’t. I just think you are wrong and silly at some times.
        jpttsn 5y ago
        No, if I took more time off to “pursue hobbies and enjoy life” I bet I’d just end up watching more TV too. I doubt I’m above the ingrained temptations that make the leisure industry go round.
      - irishcule 5y ago
        "most people’s leisure time consists of trite activities, steered by indulgent appetites" Isn't this you "judging"?
        5y ago
  - necrotic_comp 5y ago
    That's extremely reductive - for a lot of people, having time makes their life more fulfilling. Having hobbies, pursuing goals, raising a family, etc. those are all important things that make us human. You may like to work your trade, and that makes you happy, but it doesn't apply to everyone.
    - jpttsn 5y ago
      I know, but that’s not exactly the point I’m making. The point is that most people, given leisure time, let themselves down. People waste their free time mostly unintentionally. The best of intentions gives way to base impulse and then we rationalize. Shorter hours would not make you finally learn that instrument.
BlackFly 5y ago
I personally take a 20% pay cut to work a four day work week. Of course at any moment I could negotiate a 25% raise by going back to 40 hours a week. Why do I do it? Because there are plenty of things I want to do with my free time and I need time more than I need money. I want to trim my bonsai, I want to go bouldering, I want to go the gym, I want to have time to shop without the after-work rush, I want to work on hobby coding projects, I want to read, I want to solve differential equations, I want to watch TV, I want to clean my house in leisure. So... why would I produce 25% more for my employer in exchange for 25% more money that I don't really need to lose that time doing things I love? Is anyone's life so simple that more personal time equates fully to just more tv time?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aiisjustanif 5y ago
Are you American? Or somewhere where 40 hours plus is normal or time off is 2 weeks or less. I ask because it also seems prevalent in this thread to imagine that free time is a waste, and we ignore places where more free time does exist already. People do more than just TV. It’s more time spent in with your community. Gardening and spending time outdoors. Time spent exercising or taking a long walk. Spending more time with my child in their formative years. Making music or painting to stimulate my mind differently than the usual work. Reading many books. What is production, without free time is. What is production, without a life to enjoy. An active community, body, or brain is not recreation, it’s oxygen.
- jpttsn 5y ago
  I think these are things people like to think of themselves as doing with their free time: gardening, long walks on the beach, writing the next great non-American novel. When I look at what people do off work, it’s mostly TV. They paint like once, then throw out the art supplies. Their kids are watching YouTube on iPads. Participation in the “community” amounts to celebrity gossip, out-group fear-mongering, or inane small talk.
  - aiisjustanif 5y ago
    I speak from experience. Your bubble is not the same a many others. Especially Europe or Canada, Argentina, some of Southern Mexico, etc.
  - aiisjustanif 5y ago
    I’m speaking from experience. I garden myself. Many people do. Why does it have to be a great novel? The bubble you live in and describe does not sound like all bubble or even most of them. Canada, Europe, Argentina, many places where I don’t see what you described.

by jpttsn 5y ago

langitbiru 5y ago

Entrepreneurship, taking care your parents, raising kids, passion (writing novels), working out, and so on.

soneca 5y ago

You lack a lot of imagination if you think that the only thing someone would do with an extra 20 hours a week is watching TV.

jpttsn 5y ago
I don’t judge, but I rarely met anyone who spends their extra 20h on anything good. It’s mostly: - TV/video games/Facebook - drinking/drugs/gluttony whether as thrill-seeking or sedatives - a creative “hobby” (i.e. another job that they’re not good at) - “traveling” (larping to farm for Instagram validation) I just find it more interesting to pursue my actual trade. Of course we all need some amount of rest to stay sharp, but excesses of leisure never seem to produce much, not even happiness. YMMV.
- soneca 5y ago
  When you say that hobby is ”another job they’re not good at” you are obviously judging them. Most of your examples are dripping with judgment. I am not sure why you even bothered to start your comment with ”I don’t judge, but...” When you say ”I don’t get it...”, my interpretation is that you lack empathy toward people that face life differently from you. Not that is any sort of puzzling behavior, it’s just you failing to make an effort to understand other people.
  - jpttsn 5y ago
    I honestly don’t judge: zero negative feelings about anyone spending their time watching TV. If you read that between the lines, maybe it betrays your own disdain. My observation is merely that a) people rarely seem “happy” in proportion to leisure time spent, b) most people’s leisure time consists of trite activities, steered by indulgent appetites, and is easy prey for others to profit off. The thread at large makes it sound like all these philosopher kings would pursue their true calling and have wonderful adventures, living life to its fullest, if their boss never wanted them to work late. Maybe a warmer more empathetic person would refrain from pointing this out. Would people be better off not hearing uncomfortable opinions? A consequentialist might approve of some tough love at times.
    - soneca 5y ago
      The fundamental difference is that what you refer as ”uncomfortable opinions” are, for me, plain misunderstandings of why other people do stuff. My perspective is that viewing hobbies as ”another job” is plain and fundamentally wrong. They are something else entirely. The same as viewing traveling as ” larping to farm for Instagram validation”. It’s just wrong. I am not reading between the lines, I am reading the lines that you wrote. Accusing me of that ”betraying my own disdain” is just silly. Obviously you have a very high opinion of yourself. I don’t. I just think you are wrong and silly at some times.
      - jpttsn 5y ago
        No, if I took more time off to “pursue hobbies and enjoy life” I bet I’d just end up watching more TV too. I doubt I’m above the ingrained temptations that make the leisure industry go round.
    - irishcule 5y ago
      "most people’s leisure time consists of trite activities, steered by indulgent appetites" Isn't this you "judging"?
      - 5y ago
- necrotic_comp 5y ago
  That's extremely reductive - for a lot of people, having time makes their life more fulfilling. Having hobbies, pursuing goals, raising a family, etc. those are all important things that make us human. You may like to work your trade, and that makes you happy, but it doesn't apply to everyone.
  - jpttsn 5y ago
    I know, but that’s not exactly the point I’m making. The point is that most people, given leisure time, let themselves down. People waste their free time mostly unintentionally. The best of intentions gives way to base impulse and then we rationalize. Shorter hours would not make you finally learn that instrument.

BlackFly 5y ago

I personally take a 20% pay cut to work a four day work week. Of course at any moment I could negotiate a 25% raise by going back to 40 hours a week. Why do I do it? Because there are plenty of things I want to do with my free time and I need time more than I need money. I want to trim my bonsai, I want to go bouldering, I want to go the gym, I want to have time to shop without the after-work rush, I want to work on hobby coding projects, I want to read, I want to solve differential equations, I want to watch TV, I want to clean my house in leisure. So... why would I produce 25% more for my employer in exchange for 25% more money that I don't really need to lose that time doing things I love? Is anyone's life so simple that more personal time equates fully to just more tv time?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

aiisjustanif 5y ago

Are you American? Or somewhere where 40 hours plus is normal or time off is 2 weeks or less. I ask because it also seems prevalent in this thread to imagine that free time is a waste, and we ignore places where more free time does exist already. People do more than just TV. It’s more time spent in with your community. Gardening and spending time outdoors. Time spent exercising or taking a long walk. Spending more time with my child in their formative years. Making music or painting to stimulate my mind differently than the usual work. Reading many books. What is production, without free time is. What is production, without a life to enjoy. An active community, body, or brain is not recreation, it’s oxygen.

jpttsn 5y ago
I think these are things people like to think of themselves as doing with their free time: gardening, long walks on the beach, writing the next great non-American novel. When I look at what people do off work, it’s mostly TV. They paint like once, then throw out the art supplies. Their kids are watching YouTube on iPads. Participation in the “community” amounts to celebrity gossip, out-group fear-mongering, or inane small talk.
- aiisjustanif 5y ago
  I speak from experience. Your bubble is not the same a many others. Especially Europe or Canada, Argentina, some of Southern Mexico, etc.
- aiisjustanif 5y ago
  I’m speaking from experience. I garden myself. Many people do. Why does it have to be a great novel? The bubble you live in and describe does not sound like all bubble or even most of them. Canada, Europe, Argentina, many places where I don’t see what you described.