5 ms·

Interesting. Explains why for example the French for "we have to decide" is translated as "il faut trancher" (trancher = to slice) I was wondering about Dutch,

by ArnoVW 5y ago

Interesting. Explains why for example the French for "we have to decide" is translated as "il faut trancher" (trancher = to slice) I was wondering about Dutch, where the verb is "beslissen". But from what I gather from a (superficial) search, that comes from "beslitsen", which again comes from "splitsen" (breaking apart). Wondering now if the French expression for "making a difficult choice" has anything to do with it ("faire la part des choses" -> "breaking things up")

herWifei97 5y ago
Actually I’m going to arrange to get new house. “(Please = to waiting)
arp242 5y ago
According to [1] the Dutch beslissen comes from the prefix "be" ("to") and "slissen" ("resolving a conflict or problem"). I like "to resolve a conflict" more than "to kill" :-) Fits well in the poldermodel too! Slissen is no longer used in modern Dutch for this, but used for "lisp" instead, but that didn't arrive until the early 20th century and seems to have an unrelated etymology which I can't seem to find right now; it could just be phonetic, or perhaps it's related in some strange way after all. [1]: http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/beslissen http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/beslissen
- jerrre 5y ago
  To clarify: lisp as in speech impediment, we don't have our own word for the programming language
  - arp242 5y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was translated as such somewhere though. I remember "root" (as in, root path, and root process) being translated to "wortel" in old versions of Gnome. You had stuff like "Wortelproces" and "wortelpad". This was over 15 years ago; I'm sure it's better now.
    - jerrre 5y ago
      Interesting, and funny sounding, although apart from not translating, I don't really know a better translation for root in this context?
      - arp242 5y ago
        Personally I'd just leave it as "root". I looked a bit at the current Gnome translation files as I was curious, and "root user" is translated as "root-gebruiker", and "Filesystem root" as "Bestandssysteem root". Git doesn't have a Dutch translation, but it does have a German and "root" is translated as "Wurzelverzeichnis ("Wurzel" being root, and "verzeichnis" being directory). It does translate "root commit" as just "root commit" though. "Root nodes" are "Hauptwurzeln". Technically it's correct, but as a Dutch/German speaker I'd find translating root in such a way surprising and confusing, even though it's a correct translation. Perhaps that's also because I'm so used to the English, but even as a Dutch or German user you'll likely find English documentation/help regardless, and having the same technical terms is useful there. Consistency is important, but generally speaking translating technical English terms too enthusiastically is probably more confusing than helpful. Actually, I just remembered that "show threads" was translated as "draden tonen" (I can't find the current translation of this in GNOME, procps-ng leaves it as "threads" in the German translation). I also noticed that "parent/child relationships between processes" in GNOME is translated as "Moeder/dochter-relatie tussen processen", which seems rather awkward to me, but leaving it as just "parent" and "child" doesn't seem great either. Translating stuff is hard, and it gets harder the more technical it gets :-/ Something like an email client probably isn't too hard, but technical tools like process monitors? I don't envy the people working on that.
tgv 5y ago
> I was wondering about Dutch, where the verb is "beslissen". Or "besluiten", from "sluiten", to close/terminate.
- bewo001 5y ago
  In German 'beschließen' where schließen means to close.
  - carlmr 5y ago
    I think that may be the missing link here. It's probably from German beschließen, which would have been translated part by part as besluiten in Dutch, but in this case they took over the German word with the t -> ss high German consonant shift.
    - tgv 5y ago
      Earliest findings of besluiten in Dutch is 1059 (https://gtb.ivdnt.org/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M007643&lemmodern=besluiten&domein=0&conc=true https://gtb.ivdnt.org/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M...). Derived from "sluten, sluyten, slieten" (https://gtb.ivdnt.org/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=MNW&id=52619&lemmodern=sluiten&domein=0&conc=true https://gtb.ivdnt.org/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=MNW&id=5...) which is stated as related to schliessen, but etymology is not known.
astrobe_ 5y ago
"Faire la part des choses" calls for some sort of analysis, which has greek roots, but amusingly that's almost the same thing: analysis itself has a root (-lysis) that means "decompose" which is not too far from "cutting into little pieces". It is also connected to "resolve", which also can mean "decide" or "terminate".
- agumonkey 5y ago
  I was about to say this. All in all there are very few ideas in our heads. But time and space gave thousands of various twists on which word will root the idiom.
galgot 5y ago
"Faire la part des choses" is more like taking into account every parts of a problem before making a decision. literally, having each parts of a problem separated and judging advantages or disadvantages of each before making a decision. I also heard it said when someone was forced to take a decision knowing there would be bad consequences, as reassuring, like meaning "what ever one choose something bad AND something good comes from every decisions"...
Blikkentrekker 5y ago
> I was wondering about Dutch, where the verb is "beslissen". But from what I gather from a (superficial) search, that comes from "beslitsen", which again comes from "splitsen" (breaking apart). Do you have this source? all I can found is that it's from Middle Dutch “slissen” which meant “to end” but it isn't terribly well sourced.
- john-aj 5y ago
  Yeah, I think it is more likely that it is related to German "(be)schließen", Swedish "(be)sluta" etc. which originally means "close, shut, join together, lock up" etc. OTOH, that verb usually corresponds to Dutch "sluiten". "(be)slissen" seems to mean the same as "(be)sluiten", but with a different etymology. I'm not sure whether it fits chronologically, but perhaps it is a loan from German or a development, atypical for Dutch, but similar to that in German?
  - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
    In practice the verb is suppletive with it's synonym “besluiten”. In theory both can be used interchangeably but there seems to be a strong favor to use “beslissen” in the præsent imperfect, and “besluiten” in all other tenses and “aspects”.
- ArnoVW 5y ago
  During my (as said before ! =) short search on "beslissen etymologie" I found [1]. Which seems to list lemmas from several dictionaries, that span a time period of almost a century, and that do not always arrive at the same conclusion. They sort of confirmed the conclusion I always arrive at : etymology is 50% guesswork [1] : http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/beslissen http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/beslissen
mjhagen 5y ago
> I was wondering about Dutch There's also the saying: "De knoop doorhakken" (to cut the rope), which basically means to decide.
- ArnoVW 5y ago
  Yes, I did think of that. But I think that has it's origins mostly in the Gordian Knot, a legend where Alexander the Great supposedly cut a knot when he did not how to untie it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot

by ArnoVW 5y ago

herWifei97 5y ago

Actually I’m going to arrange to get new house. “(Please = to waiting)

arp242 5y ago

According to [1] the Dutch beslissen comes from the prefix "be" ("to") and "slissen" ("resolving a conflict or problem"). I like "to resolve a conflict" more than "to kill" :-) Fits well in the poldermodel too! Slissen is no longer used in modern Dutch for this, but used for "lisp" instead, but that didn't arrive until the early 20th century and seems to have an unrelated etymology which I can't seem to find right now; it could just be phonetic, or perhaps it's related in some strange way after all. [1]: http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/beslissen http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/beslissen

jerrre 5y ago
To clarify: lisp as in speech impediment, we don't have our own word for the programming language
- arp242 5y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if it was translated as such somewhere though. I remember "root" (as in, root path, and root process) being translated to "wortel" in old versions of Gnome. You had stuff like "Wortelproces" and "wortelpad". This was over 15 years ago; I'm sure it's better now.
  - jerrre 5y ago
    Interesting, and funny sounding, although apart from not translating, I don't really know a better translation for root in this context?
    - arp242 5y ago
      Personally I'd just leave it as "root". I looked a bit at the current Gnome translation files as I was curious, and "root user" is translated as "root-gebruiker", and "Filesystem root" as "Bestandssysteem root". Git doesn't have a Dutch translation, but it does have a German and "root" is translated as "Wurzelverzeichnis ("Wurzel" being root, and "verzeichnis" being directory). It does translate "root commit" as just "root commit" though. "Root nodes" are "Hauptwurzeln". Technically it's correct, but as a Dutch/German speaker I'd find translating root in such a way surprising and confusing, even though it's a correct translation. Perhaps that's also because I'm so used to the English, but even as a Dutch or German user you'll likely find English documentation/help regardless, and having the same technical terms is useful there. Consistency is important, but generally speaking translating technical English terms too enthusiastically is probably more confusing than helpful. Actually, I just remembered that "show threads" was translated as "draden tonen" (I can't find the current translation of this in GNOME, procps-ng leaves it as "threads" in the German translation). I also noticed that "parent/child relationships between processes" in GNOME is translated as "Moeder/dochter-relatie tussen processen", which seems rather awkward to me, but leaving it as just "parent" and "child" doesn't seem great either. Translating stuff is hard, and it gets harder the more technical it gets :-/ Something like an email client probably isn't too hard, but technical tools like process monitors? I don't envy the people working on that.

tgv 5y ago

> I was wondering about Dutch, where the verb is "beslissen". Or "besluiten", from "sluiten", to close/terminate.

bewo001 5y ago
In German 'beschließen' where schließen means to close.
- carlmr 5y ago
  I think that may be the missing link here. It's probably from German beschließen, which would have been translated part by part as besluiten in Dutch, but in this case they took over the German word with the t -> ss high German consonant shift.
  - tgv 5y ago
    Earliest findings of besluiten in Dutch is 1059 (https://gtb.ivdnt.org/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M007643&lemmodern=besluiten&domein=0&conc=true https://gtb.ivdnt.org/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M...). Derived from "sluten, sluyten, slieten" (https://gtb.ivdnt.org/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=MNW&id=52619&lemmodern=sluiten&domein=0&conc=true https://gtb.ivdnt.org/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=MNW&id=5...) which is stated as related to schliessen, but etymology is not known.

astrobe_ 5y ago

"Faire la part des choses" calls for some sort of analysis, which has greek roots, but amusingly that's almost the same thing: analysis itself has a root (-lysis) that means "decompose" which is not too far from "cutting into little pieces". It is also connected to "resolve", which also can mean "decide" or "terminate".

agumonkey 5y ago
I was about to say this. All in all there are very few ideas in our heads. But time and space gave thousands of various twists on which word will root the idiom.

galgot 5y ago

"Faire la part des choses" is more like taking into account every parts of a problem before making a decision. literally, having each parts of a problem separated and judging advantages or disadvantages of each before making a decision. I also heard it said when someone was forced to take a decision knowing there would be bad consequences, as reassuring, like meaning "what ever one choose something bad AND something good comes from every decisions"...

Blikkentrekker 5y ago

> I was wondering about Dutch, where the verb is "beslissen". But from what I gather from a (superficial) search, that comes from "beslitsen", which again comes from "splitsen" (breaking apart). Do you have this source? all I can found is that it's from Middle Dutch “slissen” which meant “to end” but it isn't terribly well sourced.

john-aj 5y ago
Yeah, I think it is more likely that it is related to German "(be)schließen", Swedish "(be)sluta" etc. which originally means "close, shut, join together, lock up" etc. OTOH, that verb usually corresponds to Dutch "sluiten". "(be)slissen" seems to mean the same as "(be)sluiten", but with a different etymology. I'm not sure whether it fits chronologically, but perhaps it is a loan from German or a development, atypical for Dutch, but similar to that in German?
- Blikkentrekker 5y ago
  In practice the verb is suppletive with it's synonym “besluiten”. In theory both can be used interchangeably but there seems to be a strong favor to use “beslissen” in the præsent imperfect, and “besluiten” in all other tenses and “aspects”.
ArnoVW 5y ago
During my (as said before ! =) short search on "beslissen etymologie" I found [1]. Which seems to list lemmas from several dictionaries, that span a time period of almost a century, and that do not always arrive at the same conclusion. They sort of confirmed the conclusion I always arrive at : etymology is 50% guesswork [1] : http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/beslissen http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/beslissen

mjhagen 5y ago

> I was wondering about Dutch There's also the saying: "De knoop doorhakken" (to cut the rope), which basically means to decide.

ArnoVW 5y ago
Yes, I did think of that. But I think that has it's origins mostly in the Gordian Knot, a legend where Alexander the Great supposedly cut a knot when he did not how to untie it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot