4 ms·

How the heck can people work like that for 8 hours? I start to get very worn out at 2 hours of conversation.

by MattGaiser 6y ago

rasputnik6502 6y ago
Yep feels forced like hell, no breathing room. Isn't it enough to be a team of two without holding hands all the time?
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  It feels inhumane to me. Maybe for a little bit would be ok though.
enw 6y ago
Honestly reading that felt extremely anxiety-inducing and like a nightmare work culture. My work patterns are too chaotic to ever pair for more than an hour if I’m forced to.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Work patterns, emails, special requests from team members, bladder, time for collecting thoughts, etc.
simonmales 6y ago
I've paired on a couple projects and miss it. The exhaustion is very real but pairing really works when you take breaks. When one is loosing focus, there isn't a hesitation to say let's take a break. I found it similar to taking a timeout in basketball. As an engineering manager I stressed it to the team. Take breaks or you will break.
- RogerL 6y ago
  > Take breaks or you will break. Life is waaaaayyy to short for that shit. Work so hard you are in danger of injuring yourself. No thanks.
  - simonmales 6y ago
    My limited experience with pairing has been positive. The negative is you can easily get caught up in the pace. Which can be solved by taking breaks.
viraptor 6y ago
But how often do you do long conversations? I also find it exhausting, but like almost everything: the more you do it the easier it gets.
piva00 6y ago
I worked for a couple of years on a company where we had a "pair-up all the time" when working and... We were very aware it wasn't possible to keep up like that 8h/day every single day. Most days we were very happy with 4 hours, really productive (and exhausting) days were around the 6 hours mark. We made sure to take breaks every 45 min-1h30 (depending how well the session was going), those breaks could be from 10 minutes to an hour, it needed to make us feel refreshed, not talk to people if needed, etc. I actually miss this setup a lot, it was much easier to not feel stuck, much better to have a peer available all the time to bounce ideas, clear assumptions, discover the codebase, etc., but I couldn't ever do it 8 hours/day.
- fancy_hammer 6y ago
  6 solid hours of coding solo is pushing my daily limits. I can do more but productivity goes down. Day in day out pair coding sounds for 6 hours sounds more intense again.
  - ratww 6y ago
    Yep. 6 hours of pairing feels more like 12 hours of solo coding.
  - piva00 6y ago
    Isn't that what I stated here? > We were very aware it wasn't possible to keep up like that 8h/day every single day. Most days we were very happy with 4 hours, really productive (and exhausting) days were around the 6 hours mark.
one2three4 6y ago
They can't. That's how the author got burned out. To my experience PP is to a large extend a way (for the management) to make sure that people are not slacking. As for the burnouts...
twic 6y ago
It's not like a conversation. It's like doing a task together. You're focused on the work, and most of the time, you're giving each other small nudges, rather than having a conversation. Not all the time. It's hard to explain. It is tiring. Some people don't like it. Evidently, it burns some people out (i paired for about eight years and didn't burn out). But some people get on okay with it. And when it's done well, it really is extremely effective.
dkersten 6y ago
I did it for 11 months (see comments elsewhere here) and I found it was both effective and rewarding. Some key points are that helped me: 1. You have to get on well with the person/people you're pairing with. You're working very closely with them, after all. 2. You have to take regular breaks. Pairing is mentally exhausting. But its not like 2 hours of conversations, we often sat there one person driving and being silent, the other person watching and making suggestions or pointing out issues. Usually when we needed to have actual discussions we would step away from the computer to do so. We also worked remotely a lot (I miss screenhero...) which probably also helped. 3. We never did overtime. We worked what the contract said and then no more work whatsoever. You need your downtime to recharge. We also usually went outside for lunch, to get a change of scenery and some air to clear our heads. (When we were in the office, when working from home, I dunno what the other guy did) 4. Sometimes you need some alone time to think, separate from a break. That's ok, take the time. Just make sure you both stop coding during this time. If the other person doesn't need time to think, they can go for a coffee or jot down the next tasks to tackle while coding. Or go for a walk. 5. When one person is out (sick, holidays, whatever) obviously the other person can't just sit around doing nothing. But when the other person is back, spend a day just doing code review with them so they can see what you did and why. 6. You need buy-in from all involved. In my case, it was a team of just me and another guy on that project. We were the ones who decided to try it, nobody told us to do it and we weren't forced to.

How the heck can people work like that for 8 hours? I start to get very worn out at 2 hours of conversation.

rasputnik6502 6y ago

Yep feels forced like hell, no breathing room. Isn't it enough to be a team of two without holding hands all the time?

thinkingemote 6y ago
It feels inhumane to me. Maybe for a little bit would be ok though.

enw 6y ago

Honestly reading that felt extremely anxiety-inducing and like a nightmare work culture. My work patterns are too chaotic to ever pair for more than an hour if I’m forced to.

MattGaiser 6y ago
Work patterns, emails, special requests from team members, bladder, time for collecting thoughts, etc.

simonmales 6y ago

I've paired on a couple projects and miss it. The exhaustion is very real but pairing really works when you take breaks. When one is loosing focus, there isn't a hesitation to say let's take a break. I found it similar to taking a timeout in basketball. As an engineering manager I stressed it to the team. Take breaks or you will break.

RogerL 6y ago
> Take breaks or you will break. Life is waaaaayyy to short for that shit. Work so hard you are in danger of injuring yourself. No thanks.
- simonmales 6y ago
  My limited experience with pairing has been positive. The negative is you can easily get caught up in the pace. Which can be solved by taking breaks.

viraptor 6y ago

But how often do you do long conversations? I also find it exhausting, but like almost everything: the more you do it the easier it gets.

piva00 6y ago

I worked for a couple of years on a company where we had a "pair-up all the time" when working and... We were very aware it wasn't possible to keep up like that 8h/day every single day. Most days we were very happy with 4 hours, really productive (and exhausting) days were around the 6 hours mark. We made sure to take breaks every 45 min-1h30 (depending how well the session was going), those breaks could be from 10 minutes to an hour, it needed to make us feel refreshed, not talk to people if needed, etc. I actually miss this setup a lot, it was much easier to not feel stuck, much better to have a peer available all the time to bounce ideas, clear assumptions, discover the codebase, etc., but I couldn't ever do it 8 hours/day.

fancy_hammer 6y ago
6 solid hours of coding solo is pushing my daily limits. I can do more but productivity goes down. Day in day out pair coding sounds for 6 hours sounds more intense again.
- ratww 6y ago
  Yep. 6 hours of pairing feels more like 12 hours of solo coding.
- piva00 6y ago
  Isn't that what I stated here? > We were very aware it wasn't possible to keep up like that 8h/day every single day. Most days we were very happy with 4 hours, really productive (and exhausting) days were around the 6 hours mark.

one2three4 6y ago

They can't. That's how the author got burned out. To my experience PP is to a large extend a way (for the management) to make sure that people are not slacking. As for the burnouts...

twic 6y ago

It's not like a conversation. It's like doing a task together. You're focused on the work, and most of the time, you're giving each other small nudges, rather than having a conversation. Not all the time. It's hard to explain. It is tiring. Some people don't like it. Evidently, it burns some people out (i paired for about eight years and didn't burn out). But some people get on okay with it. And when it's done well, it really is extremely effective.

dkersten 6y ago

I did it for 11 months (see comments elsewhere here) and I found it was both effective and rewarding. Some key points are that helped me: 1. You have to get on well with the person/people you're pairing with. You're working very closely with them, after all. 2. You have to take regular breaks. Pairing is mentally exhausting. But its not like 2 hours of conversations, we often sat there one person driving and being silent, the other person watching and making suggestions or pointing out issues. Usually when we needed to have actual discussions we would step away from the computer to do so. We also worked remotely a lot (I miss screenhero...) which probably also helped. 3. We never did overtime. We worked what the contract said and then no more work whatsoever. You need your downtime to recharge. We also usually went outside for lunch, to get a change of scenery and some air to clear our heads. (When we were in the office, when working from home, I dunno what the other guy did) 4. Sometimes you need some alone time to think, separate from a break. That's ok, take the time. Just make sure you both stop coding during this time. If the other person doesn't need time to think, they can go for a coffee or jot down the next tasks to tackle while coding. Or go for a walk. 5. When one person is out (sick, holidays, whatever) obviously the other person can't just sit around doing nothing. But when the other person is back, spend a day just doing code review with them so they can see what you did and why. 6. You need buy-in from all involved. In my case, it was a team of just me and another guy on that project. We were the ones who decided to try it, nobody told us to do it and we weren't forced to.