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The idea that New York cost of living is much higher is just false. You can sacrifice a bit of space and maybe the location and pay the same amount as you’re pa

The idea that New York cost of living is much higher is just false. You can sacrifice a bit of space and maybe the location and pay the same amount as you’re paying now. This seems objectively false. By definition, if it costs more to buy the same size apartment, then the cost of living (vis a vis housing) is higher. Yes, you can downsize and accept having to live with roommates to get by, but that doesn't mean the cost of living isn't higher. According to a cost of living comparison between Austin, TX (where I live) and NYC, you would need to make 140k in NYC to match 90k in Austin: http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=90000&city1=54805000&city2=53651000 http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=90000&city1=548050...

dblock 15y ago
The problem with these studies is that they measure averages. Yes, you can drop a grand for dinner at Daniel in NYC, which makes the average price skyrocket - try to spend a thousand dollars in any restaurant in Austin. The Daniel's in NYC are not an exception, so it seems that the price of food is much higher. But most people live in more normal brackets and my lunch still costs 10 bucks.
- rdouble 15y ago
  There was also a recent study that showed grocery bills in NYC were actually less expensive than most other metro areas. I've noticed the same thing after moving from Brooklyn to the middle of nowhere. I paid less at Fairway than I do here, and Fairway had a much better selection.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    Citation needed. Google seems to say that's the opposite of true. The anecdotal warning goes double here, because the NYC lifestyle deemphasizes groceries.
    - rdouble 15y ago
      http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/26/columbia-study-finds-groceries-cheaper-in-nyc/ http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/26/columbia-study-finds-... Anecdotally, I recently took a road trip across the southwest and Fairway was cheaper than similar stores in Tucson, Flagstaff, Moab and Boulder. In Minneapolis things got cheap again but in Northern MN/ND they are about the same (as NYC).
      - ebiester 15y ago
        That's not surprising in the southwest, due to transportation costs.
    - daeken 15y ago
      I've bought groceries exactly once in the 7 months I've lived in NYC. It's just too damned convenient to go on SeamlessWeb.
- msluyter 15y ago
  I'm curious if you have any evidence to back up your assertion that high end restaurants are calculated in the averages? In any event, this generates a more detailed breakdown: http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-l... A few interesting examples (I chose to compare to Brooklyn, since Manhattan was over the top ridiculous): - Austin Brooklyn Home Price $232,059.83 $944,473.13 Rent $926.30 $2,249.13 Doctor Visit $84.28 $105.09 Pizza $10.08 $11.33 Beer $8.43 $9.81 Ground Beef $2.54 $3.39 Etc... Weirdly, optometrists are way cheaper there (94$ vs 56$). Hmm... I'm going to have to co-ordinate my checkups with my vacations...
  - dblock 15y ago
    You got me. My evidence is anecdotal. But still... I own a 2 bedroom in Brooklyn (1200sqft) with view of the Ocean that's that is less expensive that the number on the top right by 150K$. I definitely think my place is "above average", so these numbers must be skewed by my neighbors that paid 2.7MM$ for an apartment the same size because it had a gold-plated ceiling (Russian Neighborhood).
  - potatolicious 15y ago
    I've moved around a fair bit to a number of different cities, and IMHO these "cost of living comparison" reports are mostly bullshit. One might be able to make some good comparisons about rent, since that's so heavily market-driven... but groceries? I find that the price of groceries varies so widely across any city, or hell, any neighborhood that one cannot possibly make a reasonable claim to "a bottle of beer costs $X", nor "a delivered pizza costs $Y". Take where I'm right now for example - your link has the broad area "Seattle-Bellevue-Everett" - which covers every single neighborhood in Seattle, from the cheapest in the Central District all the way to the most expensive in Belltown. And then it moves north to heavily blue-collar areas like Everett and software-engineer-land like Bellevue. How can any reasonable pricing index be established like that?
  - mcdowall 15y ago
    I look at my tax deductions each month in the UK and sometimes feel like weeping, then I see figures such as 'Doctor Visit ~$95' and take for granted not having to pay for healthcare. Just out of curiosity, was that $8/9 for a pint/litre of beer or a 4 pack. When I was in NYC last year I don't recall it being anywhere near that expensive.
krschultz 15y ago
The real mitigating factor is the car. When you cut out car payment/car depreciation, insurance, gas, maitenance and take that money and put it towards your housing, it evens out. I own my car outright, but I expect maybe $100 a month in maitenance, $100 a month in insurance, $200 in gas, and probably $100-$200 a month in depreciation. My current rent for a 3BR house with a yard is $1400. I don't need a 3BR, but I literally can not rent anything smaller that isn't a shitty apartment, so basically I can't spend less than that. So what can I get for $1900 in NYC? From what I've seen, I'd like it better than what I have right now. Will I get exactly the same square footage? Of course not. I will have someone living above me and below me where now I have a single family home. But it's an apples to oranges comparison, it would take millions of dollars to buy the amount of land I'm currently renting and build a single family home - becuase its a city. It's just inherently different. I want enough room to have a bedroom, a bathroom, an office with my computer and a pull-out couch for friends, a kitchen to cook in and a family room/dining room to have a couch, a TV and a table to eat at. I can pull that off on my current salary whether its in NYC or elsewhere. So a cost of living calculator doesn't take into effect the fact that although the dimensions of the room are smaller, the NYC apartment is functionally the same as my current one that is far, far, bigger.
- tptacek 15y ago
  This answer also isn't responsive. If you you want "enough room to have a" &c &c, you could sell your single-family home in Des Moines, buy a condo, and pocket the difference.
- larrykubin 15y ago
  Another data point: I've lived in Austin for 13 years witbout a car. I am 31. I live in what I consider the best part of Central Austin and ride the bus to downtown for concerts/drinks or to the University area, walk to nearby bars and coffee shops. 1100 sq ft with front and back yard, garage for 900. Split with roommate is 450. No state income tax. I understand that New York has a million options and many city amenities, but I dont understand how one could say the costs even out.
  - potatolicious 15y ago
angdis 15y ago
I think "salary calculators" do not reflect reality when you're comparing places which are qualitatively very different. For instance, living in NYC or the other big dense cities involves making trade-offs that don't even make sense in a place like Austin (and vice-versa). Yes, in NYC, your living quarters will be much smaller, and no, you won't need a car to be comfortable. The cost of living for other stuff outside of housing and transportation is going to be highly variable depending on your lifestyle. Again, it is all about trade-offs, whether or not the trade-offs are desirable depends on the individual.
- pavel_lishin 15y ago
  Not to mention, apparently a lot of them base the cost-of-living on the cost of buying property, vs. renting. I have no interest in owning a house in the next five years, and wish I could exclude that stuff from comparisons.
silverlake 15y ago
I wouldn't put too much stock in those CoL calculators. I checked them all when I moved to NYC and they turned out to be wrong (for me). Compared to living in Chicago, I pay about 2X more in rent, but everything else is roughly 10% more. I am, however, extremely frugal.

dblock 15y ago

The problem with these studies is that they measure averages. Yes, you can drop a grand for dinner at Daniel in NYC, which makes the average price skyrocket - try to spend a thousand dollars in any restaurant in Austin. The Daniel's in NYC are not an exception, so it seems that the price of food is much higher. But most people live in more normal brackets and my lunch still costs 10 bucks.

rdouble 15y ago
There was also a recent study that showed grocery bills in NYC were actually less expensive than most other metro areas. I've noticed the same thing after moving from Brooklyn to the middle of nowhere. I paid less at Fairway than I do here, and Fairway had a much better selection.
- tptacek 15y ago
  Citation needed. Google seems to say that's the opposite of true. The anecdotal warning goes double here, because the NYC lifestyle deemphasizes groceries.
  - rdouble 15y ago
    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/26/columbia-study-finds-groceries-cheaper-in-nyc/ http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/26/columbia-study-finds-... Anecdotally, I recently took a road trip across the southwest and Fairway was cheaper than similar stores in Tucson, Flagstaff, Moab and Boulder. In Minneapolis things got cheap again but in Northern MN/ND they are about the same (as NYC).
    - ebiester 15y ago
      That's not surprising in the southwest, due to transportation costs.
  - daeken 15y ago
    I've bought groceries exactly once in the 7 months I've lived in NYC. It's just too damned convenient to go on SeamlessWeb.
msluyter 15y ago
I'm curious if you have any evidence to back up your assertion that high end restaurants are calculated in the averages? In any event, this generates a more detailed breakdown: http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-l... A few interesting examples (I chose to compare to Brooklyn, since Manhattan was over the top ridiculous): - Austin Brooklyn Home Price $232,059.83 $944,473.13 Rent $926.30 $2,249.13 Doctor Visit $84.28 $105.09 Pizza $10.08 $11.33 Beer $8.43 $9.81 Ground Beef $2.54 $3.39 Etc... Weirdly, optometrists are way cheaper there (94$ vs 56$). Hmm... I'm going to have to co-ordinate my checkups with my vacations...
- dblock 15y ago
  You got me. My evidence is anecdotal. But still... I own a 2 bedroom in Brooklyn (1200sqft) with view of the Ocean that's that is less expensive that the number on the top right by 150K$. I definitely think my place is "above average", so these numbers must be skewed by my neighbors that paid 2.7MM$ for an apartment the same size because it had a gold-plated ceiling (Russian Neighborhood).
- potatolicious 15y ago
  I've moved around a fair bit to a number of different cities, and IMHO these "cost of living comparison" reports are mostly bullshit. One might be able to make some good comparisons about rent, since that's so heavily market-driven... but groceries? I find that the price of groceries varies so widely across any city, or hell, any neighborhood that one cannot possibly make a reasonable claim to "a bottle of beer costs $X", nor "a delivered pizza costs $Y". Take where I'm right now for example - your link has the broad area "Seattle-Bellevue-Everett" - which covers every single neighborhood in Seattle, from the cheapest in the Central District all the way to the most expensive in Belltown. And then it moves north to heavily blue-collar areas like Everett and software-engineer-land like Bellevue. How can any reasonable pricing index be established like that?
- mcdowall 15y ago
  I look at my tax deductions each month in the UK and sometimes feel like weeping, then I see figures such as 'Doctor Visit ~$95' and take for granted not having to pay for healthcare. Just out of curiosity, was that $8/9 for a pint/litre of beer or a 4 pack. When I was in NYC last year I don't recall it being anywhere near that expensive.

krschultz 15y ago

The real mitigating factor is the car. When you cut out car payment/car depreciation, insurance, gas, maitenance and take that money and put it towards your housing, it evens out. I own my car outright, but I expect maybe $100 a month in maitenance, $100 a month in insurance, $200 in gas, and probably $100-$200 a month in depreciation. My current rent for a 3BR house with a yard is $1400. I don't need a 3BR, but I literally can not rent anything smaller that isn't a shitty apartment, so basically I can't spend less than that. So what can I get for $1900 in NYC? From what I've seen, I'd like it better than what I have right now. Will I get exactly the same square footage? Of course not. I will have someone living above me and below me where now I have a single family home. But it's an apples to oranges comparison, it would take millions of dollars to buy the amount of land I'm currently renting and build a single family home - becuase its a city. It's just inherently different. I want enough room to have a bedroom, a bathroom, an office with my computer and a pull-out couch for friends, a kitchen to cook in and a family room/dining room to have a couch, a TV and a table to eat at. I can pull that off on my current salary whether its in NYC or elsewhere. So a cost of living calculator doesn't take into effect the fact that although the dimensions of the room are smaller, the NYC apartment is functionally the same as my current one that is far, far, bigger.

tptacek 15y ago
This answer also isn't responsive. If you you want "enough room to have a" &c &c, you could sell your single-family home in Des Moines, buy a condo, and pocket the difference.
larrykubin 15y ago
Another data point: I've lived in Austin for 13 years witbout a car. I am 31. I live in what I consider the best part of Central Austin and ride the bus to downtown for concerts/drinks or to the University area, walk to nearby bars and coffee shops. 1100 sq ft with front and back yard, garage for 900. Split with roommate is 450. No state income tax. I understand that New York has a million options and many city amenities, but I dont understand how one could say the costs even out.
- potatolicious 15y ago

angdis 15y ago

I think "salary calculators" do not reflect reality when you're comparing places which are qualitatively very different. For instance, living in NYC or the other big dense cities involves making trade-offs that don't even make sense in a place like Austin (and vice-versa). Yes, in NYC, your living quarters will be much smaller, and no, you won't need a car to be comfortable. The cost of living for other stuff outside of housing and transportation is going to be highly variable depending on your lifestyle. Again, it is all about trade-offs, whether or not the trade-offs are desirable depends on the individual.

pavel_lishin 15y ago
Not to mention, apparently a lot of them base the cost-of-living on the cost of buying property, vs. renting. I have no interest in owning a house in the next five years, and wish I could exclude that stuff from comparisons.

silverlake 15y ago

I wouldn't put too much stock in those CoL calculators. I checked them all when I moved to NYC and they turned out to be wrong (for me). Compared to living in Chicago, I pay about 2X more in rent, but everything else is roughly 10% more. I am, however, extremely frugal.