3 ms·

What is a unit of wealth? Took us a while but we figured out fiat currency.

by ExtraE 5y ago

proc0 5y ago
Ok sure, so what is it then? The point is you need that unit before you can measure.
- ExtraE 5y ago
  I’m not sure, I’m not a psychologist. I’m only arguing that such a unit could exist (either now or at some point in the future). (If you’re asking about the units for wealth: USD, Euros, etc)
  - proc0 5y ago
    Ok I see, to clarify, I mean at the individual, concrete level, as oppose to statistical, and indirect measures of it. I really doubt there is anything, since it's subjective and we also don't know the underlying mechanisms of the mind which produce it.
    - ExtraE 5y ago
      Subjective well being (SWB) comes to mind but not sure if that fits your definition. There are many other similar measures, like the ladder question. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_well-being https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_well-being
      - proc0 5y ago
        That looks statistical analysis of some kind, it gives this example: > the onset of the COVID-19 outbreak, lowered emotional well-being by 74%. So it's not like it can assess this number for an individual, at least not without first comparing and contrasting it with every other person in some sample group. In other words, a true unit of happiness, would allow a completely independent measure of any one individual's current state of happiness. Imagine something like a thermometer for happiness, you point it at someone and it reads out the units of happiness (over-simplifying the application to make the point). Therefore we're not even close to knowing what this is or how to measure it, and the way we really communicate around it is by using our own subjectivity of it and making correlations.
        ExtraE 5y ago
        I think that is more like saying the average height. The ladder question (a common tool for measuring SWB) is this: Please imagine a ladder with steps numbered from zero at the bottom to 10 at the top. The top of the ladder represents the best possible life for you and the bottom of the ladder represents the worst possible life for you. On which step of the ladder would you say you personally feel you stand at this time? (ladder-present) https://news.gallup.com/poll/122453/understanding-gallup-uses-cantril-scale.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/122453/understanding-gallup-use... On which step do you think you will stand about five years from now? (ladder-future)
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Most wealthy people do not feel wealthy though. This includes millionaires.
- ExtraE 5y ago
  Assuming this is true: And...? Wealth in this context isn’t a feeling.
freshair 5y ago
That's a pretty shitty unit. Using those units, it's nontrivial to even compare two measurements made in the same country with the same currency, only one generation apart in time. When dealing with a decent unit like meters, you don't need to choose from one of several competing models of distance-inflation to account for the difference in a meter in 2001 and 2021.
- ExtraE 5y ago
  I didn’t say it was a good unit, just that it was one. That being said, I’d argue “2001 dollars” is a unit, not “dollars”. You’ll often see data in econ journals cite something in that type of unit. Another angle on this is that comparing wealth across time is nontrivial (and the money isn’t to blame). How do you compare the value of a iPhone in 2020 to a landline in 1980? It’s possible, but nontrivial. Our units (in some messy imperfect way) reflect that (and other factors).
  - freshair 5y ago
    > I’d argue “2001 dollars” is a unit, Why though? Why dollars in a particular year, rather than dollars in general? Sure the value of a dollar changes from year to year, but the value of a dollar also changes constantly in any given year too. Over the past year, the value of a US dollar relative to a Euro has fluctuated by more than 10 cents. In fact the relative values of currencies fluctuate constantly, near-enough to instantaneously. But this isn't reflected in the pricing of most consumer goods; the price of common household goods in a grocery store might vary a few times a week, but not thousands of times an hour. So in one context the value of a dollar seems to vary constantly, but in another context the value of a dollar is substantially more stable. So a dollar doesn't even have a set particular value at any instant in time; it depends on what kind of store you're standing in. If happiness is a metric with units even worse than this, then I see little hope for any scientific study of happiness.
- dTal 5y ago
  There's no global reference frame for distance or wealth. You can't point to a spot in space and say "the Earth was here 1000 years ago". All you can say is that A is x meters from B, right now. And likewise you can't compare wealth now with wealth 50 years ago - it's not a coherent concept, when you could buy a house on a blue collar wage, but not a smartphone at any price. What you can do is say that person A is twice as wealthy as person B.

What is a unit of wealth? Took us a while but we figured out fiat currency.

by ExtraE 5y ago

What is a unit of wealth? Took us a while but we figured out fiat currency.

proc0 5y ago

Ok sure, so what is it then? The point is you need that unit before you can measure.

ExtraE 5y ago
I’m not sure, I’m not a psychologist. I’m only arguing that such a unit could exist (either now or at some point in the future). (If you’re asking about the units for wealth: USD, Euros, etc)
- proc0 5y ago
  Ok I see, to clarify, I mean at the individual, concrete level, as oppose to statistical, and indirect measures of it. I really doubt there is anything, since it's subjective and we also don't know the underlying mechanisms of the mind which produce it.
  - ExtraE 5y ago
    Subjective well being (SWB) comes to mind but not sure if that fits your definition. There are many other similar measures, like the ladder question. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_well-being https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_well-being
    - proc0 5y ago
      That looks statistical analysis of some kind, it gives this example: > the onset of the COVID-19 outbreak, lowered emotional well-being by 74%. So it's not like it can assess this number for an individual, at least not without first comparing and contrasting it with every other person in some sample group. In other words, a true unit of happiness, would allow a completely independent measure of any one individual's current state of happiness. Imagine something like a thermometer for happiness, you point it at someone and it reads out the units of happiness (over-simplifying the application to make the point). Therefore we're not even close to knowing what this is or how to measure it, and the way we really communicate around it is by using our own subjectivity of it and making correlations.
      - ExtraE 5y ago
        I think that is more like saying the average height. The ladder question (a common tool for measuring SWB) is this: Please imagine a ladder with steps numbered from zero at the bottom to 10 at the top. The top of the ladder represents the best possible life for you and the bottom of the ladder represents the worst possible life for you. On which step of the ladder would you say you personally feel you stand at this time? (ladder-present) https://news.gallup.com/poll/122453/understanding-gallup-uses-cantril-scale.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/122453/understanding-gallup-use... On which step do you think you will stand about five years from now? (ladder-future)

mensetmanusman 5y ago

Most wealthy people do not feel wealthy though. This includes millionaires.

ExtraE 5y ago
Assuming this is true: And...? Wealth in this context isn’t a feeling.

freshair 5y ago

That's a pretty shitty unit. Using those units, it's nontrivial to even compare two measurements made in the same country with the same currency, only one generation apart in time. When dealing with a decent unit like meters, you don't need to choose from one of several competing models of distance-inflation to account for the difference in a meter in 2001 and 2021.

ExtraE 5y ago
I didn’t say it was a good unit, just that it was one. That being said, I’d argue “2001 dollars” is a unit, not “dollars”. You’ll often see data in econ journals cite something in that type of unit. Another angle on this is that comparing wealth across time is nontrivial (and the money isn’t to blame). How do you compare the value of a iPhone in 2020 to a landline in 1980? It’s possible, but nontrivial. Our units (in some messy imperfect way) reflect that (and other factors).
- freshair 5y ago
  > I’d argue “2001 dollars” is a unit, Why though? Why dollars in a particular year, rather than dollars in general? Sure the value of a dollar changes from year to year, but the value of a dollar also changes constantly in any given year too. Over the past year, the value of a US dollar relative to a Euro has fluctuated by more than 10 cents. In fact the relative values of currencies fluctuate constantly, near-enough to instantaneously. But this isn't reflected in the pricing of most consumer goods; the price of common household goods in a grocery store might vary a few times a week, but not thousands of times an hour. So in one context the value of a dollar seems to vary constantly, but in another context the value of a dollar is substantially more stable. So a dollar doesn't even have a set particular value at any instant in time; it depends on what kind of store you're standing in. If happiness is a metric with units even worse than this, then I see little hope for any scientific study of happiness.
dTal 5y ago
There's no global reference frame for distance or wealth. You can't point to a spot in space and say "the Earth was here 1000 years ago". All you can say is that A is x meters from B, right now. And likewise you can't compare wealth now with wealth 50 years ago - it's not a coherent concept, when you could buy a house on a blue collar wage, but not a smartphone at any price. What you can do is say that person A is twice as wealthy as person B.