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Moving to New York: a Guide for Software Engineers
- zavulon 15y ago> Drinking happens in New York every day, except Saturday. On Saturday people try to hide as those people that only go out on week-ends take over. Life resumes on Sunday night. So true
- dblock 15y agoFinally someone noticed the important paragraph of my post! +1
- daeken 15y agoI'm in Alphabet City and my favorite drinking nights are Tuesday and Wednesday by far. Bars aren't crowded, you can always find interesting people to talk to, and it's generally just a lot more fun. The only issue being that if the bar is too underpopulated, it may close early.
- wccrawford 15y ago"The idea that New York cost of living is much higher is just false. You can sacrifice a bit of space and maybe the location and pay the same amount as you’re paying now." Or I could do that HERE and pay less, too. So it's -true-.
- maratd 15y agoYes, it is true. It is also true that the opportunities to be had in New York, don't exist anywhere else ... which explains the higher demand/price. Everything is always at equilibrium, everywhere. If you're paying more, there's a reason.
- wccrawford 15y agoI'm only talking about this one piece, just like he was. If you expand it to other pieces, it's a different conversation.
- donohoe 15y agoAgreed. I just left NYC for Seattle. There were many reasons behind that - cost of living being one of them. However, its all relative... If I were single and wanted to eat noodles and share an apartment I could easily make NYC work - but things are still a bit more expensive, even buying beer on tap ($5 for Bud-like-quality, $6 for Guinness in many places). Don't forget you need to keep up with all those ironic t-shirts and that lomo camera ain't cheap :) However, now that I have kids and would want very simple things like a garden, a good school, in a relatively safe neighborhood then you have to be prepared to pay a huge amount in rent to be in that school district and to get that ground-sloor apartment in a nice brownstone (in Park Slope, Brooklyn that would be close to $4K a month in rent for a 2bdr - thats based on some parents I know and what they pay).
- dblock 15y agoWhat's that place in Seattle that you're comparing with a ground floor apartment in a brownstone in Park Slope (the hot place to live for families)?
- donohoe 15y agoThere might be better examples - but right now Ballard. 3bdr, 2br, loft, more sq feet, garage, in great school district, garden, separate deck, washer, dryer = <$2K. Probably pay $4K to 5K in NYC (Park Slope). 35 min commute to work (or I can cycle)
- nicholasjbs 15y agoI live in Park Slope, and those numbers are a bit high. You can get a beautiful 3BR brownstone (exposed brick, high ceilings, hardwood floors, etc) in Park Slope for well under $3500.
- old-gregg 15y agoHm... I failed to find any liveable 2br apartments for $2,700 in Park Slope in the fall of 08, despite banks going bust left&right. And from what I hear it only got more expensive since then. Ironically, UWS turned out to be cheaper so that's where I lived. Haha, this was a typical NYC experience: comparing rents and not believing the deals other people are getting :)
- rdouble 15y agoYou will always a job in any city, state or country. Even if you suck, there will always be someone to hire you because the market of software engineers is hot and the numbers play in your favor As someone who has tried to figure out how to live in the area I grew up (northwestern Minnesota) instead of New York or the Bay area, this isn't quite accurate. In many (most?) flyover states software jobs pay 1/5-1/3 what you would make in NYC. The only technology needed is .NET or sometimes Java - the last 5 years of "scaling Ruby" or whatever you were doing, are more like a five year gap in your resume. The number of available positions are orders of magnitude less than NYC or the Bay. Often, you can get paid more and have an easier time getting work if you're an IT dude, rather than a software developer. The other option is being a remote worker for someplace cool but you usually need to have a career somewhere else for a few years to make connections. Of course, the American outback might be a good place to hole up and work on your own software startup for a while, but as soon as you need to hire you'll have to move again. If you want to be able to throw a dart at a map and pick up high paying work wherever you want, the answer is still being an MD. The worst MD in North Dakota can make what the best software engineer in Manhattan makes. In a weird inversion of most employment reality, doctors can often make far more in a rural setting than they can in a mid-sided metro, due to "hardship post" style compensation. The career that is a close second for job mobility is "physicians assistant" - they make 80 grand no matter where they live.
- 100k 15y agoYour "scaling Ruby" experience is in great demand in Minnesota, as one would notice from the volume of postings on the Ruby Users of Minnesota (http://ruby.mn http://ruby.mn) mailing list. At least in the Twin Cities, there are a lot of developer jobs now. Most of them suck, but most jobs suck everywhere. There are fewer startups, that is very true.
- rdouble 15y agoCool, I'll check it out. However, I live five hours north of the Twin Cities, and am not really looking for a job unless its something really cool.
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- msluyter 15y agoThe idea that New York cost of living is much higher is just false. You can sacrifice a bit of space and maybe the location and pay the same amount as you’re paying now. This seems objectively false. By definition, if it costs more to buy the same size apartment, then the cost of living (vis a vis housing) is higher. Yes, you can downsize and accept having to live with roommates to get by, but that doesn't mean the cost of living isn't higher. According to a cost of living comparison between Austin, TX (where I live) and NYC, you would need to make 140k in NYC to match 90k in Austin: http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=90000&city1=54805000&city2=53651000 http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=90000&city1=548050...
- dblock 15y agoThe problem with these studies is that they measure averages. Yes, you can drop a grand for dinner at Daniel in NYC, which makes the average price skyrocket - try to spend a thousand dollars in any restaurant in Austin. The Daniel's in NYC are not an exception, so it seems that the price of food is much higher. But most people live in more normal brackets and my lunch still costs 10 bucks.
- rdouble 15y agoThere was also a recent study that showed grocery bills in NYC were actually less expensive than most other metro areas. I've noticed the same thing after moving from Brooklyn to the middle of nowhere. I paid less at Fairway than I do here, and Fairway had a much better selection.
- tptacek 15y agoCitation needed. Google seems to say that's the opposite of true. The anecdotal warning goes double here, because the NYC lifestyle deemphasizes groceries.
- rdouble 15y agohttp://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/26/columbia-study-finds-groceries-cheaper-in-nyc/ http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/26/columbia-study-finds-... Anecdotally, I recently took a road trip across the southwest and Fairway was cheaper than similar stores in Tucson, Flagstaff, Moab and Boulder. In Minneapolis things got cheap again but in Northern MN/ND they are about the same (as NYC).
- steipete 15y agoI'd love to read the article "Moving to San Francisco: a Guide for Software Engineers" ... moving there in august.
- mindotus 15y agoGreat article! If anyone is in the NYC area and interested in working on http://min.us/pages/about http://min.us/pages/about , feel free to send me an email! john@min.us
- lpgauth 15y agoA little off-topic, but how hard is it to move/work in NYC if you're Canadian?
- spolsky 15y agoIf you have a bachelors degree in a useful field it's very easy with a NAFTA (TN) Visa.
- alxp 15y agoThis is correct, but US immigration are quite picky about the kinds of job titles that they will allow you to gat a TN visa for. The general rule is the job title needs to say "computer analyst" and "management consultant", and avoid the words 'developer', 'programmer' and 'manager'. Also smaller border crossings tend to be better than large airports. YVR and YYZ are quite strict about documentation requirements and are a bit power-trippy from my and friends' experiences. Land crossings are better.
- cmontgomeryb 15y agoAn interesting read. I'm born and raised in the UK, 23 years old and would love to move to NYC in the next few years. The problem for people outside of the UK is always going to be the immigration process - I'm having trouble figuring out the chicken and egg problem (job first, or move first?) and how exactly I should go about moving. That aside, I found this article interesting, especially with regards to rent. I loved every second I've spent in NYC, hopefully I'll be there to work eventually.
- mdda 15y agoFYI : I'm a UK national that's been running a UK-majority owned LLC in NYC for the last ~12 years (check out the E-2 visa). If you'd like to discuss doing something productive software-wise in NYC, let me know.
- untog 15y agoI'm a UK national working in NYC- it happened by complete change (a recruiter after I posted my CV on Monster), so it does happen, but no, it's not easy. There are rumblings about changes to visas that will make it easier for startup entrepreneurs to come to the US, which is quite exciting. Right now I can only work for my employer, so I can't start up any little side projects.
- greenail 15y agoSimple little tip: You can save a ton of money for you and the rental owner if you go directly to the property management company and leave out the rental broker. I found several great apartments this way, I called the property management company told them what I wanted and they gave me a hand full of keys and addresses and I showed my self the apartments. The brokers make money from you and they charge the property managers a fee so you can actually get a place with lower rent this way.
- schleyfox 15y agoShameless plug, but should you decide to follow the article and move to New York, my startup can help you figure out where to live and hang out: http://nabewise.com/nyc http://nabewise.com/nyc . We also cover many other places that engineers might want to live.
- For_Iconoclasm 15y agoThis site looks pretty cool. I'd like to see some more cities listed.
- lkrubner 15y agoThis is my current apartment: http://www.flickr.com/photos/squidiculous/sets/72157625985445247/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/squidiculous/sets/7215762598544... It does not look that nice right now. Those photos were taken by the previous tenant, who was an artist and put some time into the place. Still, I love this apartment. I pay $1,600 a month for it. I'm in Brooklyn (16 Waverly Ave, right by the old Naval Yards, about 12 blocks outside of Dumbo). I agree with the person who said the main cost savings in New York is that you do not need a car. I get everywhere with my bicycle. When it is raining, I take the MTA. The unlimited MTA is about $100 a month, which is slightly more than $3 a day for unlimited travel by subway and bus. Not a bad deal.
- mtogo 15y agoHey look, an interesting article. As a software engineer you’re very privileged. You will always a job in any city, state or country. Even if you suck, there will always be someone to hire you because the market of software engineers is hot and the numbers play in your favor. Oh, it's satire. EDIT: Okay, wow, apparently it's not satire. In that case, i have no idea how the author got this idea but i don't think he could be more far off.
- notJim 15y agoThis has actually been roughly my experience. Exaggerated, no doubt, but it's pretty easy to find jobs.
- dblock 15y agoIf you have a different experience, you should write about it! About a 100% of engineers around me have succeeded in finding jobs very quickly and had choices, which is not the experience of 95% of people in this world.
- m0nastic 15y agoI'll get to put this to the test in another month or so as I move from DC to NYC. It helps that DC is almost as expensive, everything I've seen so far apartment-wise looks like I'll be paying the same amount of money for a 2 bedroom that I'm currently paying for a 1 bedroom (albeit smaller overall square footage). I'll also have an extra 200 a month from not having a car (insurance and parking), and most other costs seem to be about the same. If I were moving from somewhere cheaper, maybe I'd feel differently.
- elefont2 15y agoAwesome article, if anyone knows of an equivalent article about moving to London, please provide a link
- T-hawk 15y agoOne of the best places to live in New York is actually New Jersey. Large areas of Jersey City and Hoboken and their surroundings are just as easy to commute via the PATH subway or a bus or even a ferry. Rent goes very roughly 20% cheaper than Manhattan for similar digs, everything from tiny studios to ultramodern luxury towers. Hoboken has plenty of nightlife in its own right too. Car rentals for weekend trips are as much as 50% cheaper in NJ. Bonus: you don't pay NYC income tax, and NJ sales tax is a bit less than NY. I've lived in NJ and commuted to NY for essentially my entire professional life, and quite happy with that setup.
- frankdenbow 15y agoSome are making it even cheaper to live in NYC with a Startup Co-Living space http://www.indiegogo.com/scls http://www.indiegogo.com/scls