5 ms·

But the question is why didn't any of the functional languages with these desirable features ever reach mainstream popularity.

jtwebman 5y ago
because they didn't have millions of dollars for marketing budgets or the one thing they did that could make startups make millions off their work.
- goatinaboat 5y ago
  because they didn't have millions of dollars for marketing budgets or the one thing they did that could make startups make millions off their work. If the French government had realised what they had in OCaml and made it the standard programming language in all of France they would be a software powerhouse by now.
  - phtrivier 5y ago
    Back when I was a student (circa 2000), caml was one of the "official" language to teach computer science in the first few years leading to engineering school ; and in my case, it also happened to be the first language taught to everyone in my eng school. So I guess the acamedic world was trying it's best. I remember joking with a TA that no one would ever write a line a caml professionally ; I can't wait to be writing reason or caramel at a gig :) Happy birthday !
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    I'd bet that if ocaml had been made the official proglang for all of France it would have died a slow death like ADA. French public sector is a swamp.
    - goatinaboat 5y ago
      French public sector is a swamp. They are, or were, capable of serious technical advances, such as Le Minitel being way ahead of its time.
pyrale 5y ago
Along other things, there was a heavy investment in marketing the languages that came at the same time as the likes of ocaml [1]. In more recent years, we've also seen that backing by a major company that can help building the ecosystem is a major factor, as happened with Go. Finally, some languages flourished because they offer access to a platform that would otherwise be inaccessible, as JS does. Overall, though, functional languages see progression today, they may not have an exponential growth, but neither did Python, and look where it is now. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2003/06/09/sun_preps_500m_java_brand/ https://www.theregister.com/2003/06/09/sun_preps_500m_java_b...
tooltower 5y ago
Ecosystem. It's not always about the language features, it's about how quickly I can get something working. Having a large, thriving ecosystem is a big part of that.
dudul 5y ago
What mainstream languages are you thinking about? Java is obviously the one that comes to mind when talking about market dominance, but it was created/supported by extremely wealthy corporations who invested hundreds of millions to push for its adoption. Do you have others in mind? I'm sure we can find fairly similar circumstances for most of them.
- blacktriangle 5y ago
  Much as people credit Sun's marketing for Java's success, I think it would have succeeded even without them. Java successfully brought garbage collection to the majority of working developers at the time who were all C and C++ developers. This was a huge step forward that solved a massive pain point. Today this is far less of a compelling argument since most languages are GC'd and C++ is far less dominant, but Java was the right language for the time.
  - macintux 5y ago
    I recall a quote from an anonymous industry heavyweight when Java came out (paraphrased now because I can't remember exactly where I saw it): "Thank goodness, now I don't have to learn C++."
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    There was another big factor, remember that ISO C++ initial release is from 1998 and while C was standardised in 1990, many compilers in the mid-90's were still catching up to it. Then POSIX still left too room for each UNIX flavour to decide how to actually implement certain features, e.g. signal. So Java, despite being initially interpreted felt like how portable code should be, coupled with a rich library.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    > Java successfully brought garbage collection to the majority of working developers at the time who were all C and C++ developers. Isn't this what people refer as marketing? Other languages were garbage collected before Java. Common Lisp and SML both existed a decade before Java. There was also Smalltalk and Eiffel, but for them I've heard that Java being free really helped (which may be called marketing or not, but is still related to Sun money in a way).
legobmw99 5y ago
I’ll add an alternative answer to the variety you’ve gotten: functional programming is often given a bad name for not really corresponding to the way computers actually work. When you’re writing C, it can feel like the code you’re writing corresponds directly to the actual physical processes and components of the machine. The more higher level you get, the less you feel that (no Malloc in Java, for example), and functional languages are fully based on a model of computation that isn’t the one we physically have in the real world. This can also lead to speed and memory problems, though I think at this point the compilers for these languages are good enough that this is less of a concern than it may have been. It’s an interesting example of the Blub paradox [0] as well (Paul Graham’s answer to a similar question, “why doesn’t everyone use Lisp”) [0] https://wiki.c2.com/?BlubParadox https://wiki.c2.com/?BlubParadox
zopa 5y ago
That's really not the question. Any language that we've all heard of is pretty much by definition a wild success, comparatively. Most languages stay very small. There are very large first-mover advantages and network effects to programming languages. Programmers want to learn languages existing code is written in; companies want to use languages that lots of programmers already know. Languages that get big for historical reasons tend to stay that way. Mainstream adoption wasn't the main goal for a lot of functional languages when they were created: the aim was to develop ideas of how programming could be better. The surprising thing, really, is that people write real production in some of these languages, despite how different they are from what most programmers already know. We shouldn't be treating not getting as big as Java as some sort of failure.
chubot 5y ago
Programmers generally pick platforms and not languages. C became popular because of Unix and then Windows. JavaScript came with the browser. PHP came with shared hosting. Go sort of came with the "cloud". Java was made by an OS company, and it got new life with Android. So did Kotlin. Swift is for iOS, etc. There are exceptions like Python and Ruby, but I think the "default" is that a given language is not popular, and there have been almost no platforms written in functional languages. (anticipating the objection: Lisp isn't functional :) )
- jolux 5y ago
  Ruby got big because of Rails specifically.
fortran77 5y ago
F#? That's very popular.
- jolux 5y ago
  It's not really all that popular. Certainly not compared to C#.
cercatrova 5y ago
Functional languages are harder to learn than imperative languages, a big factor that I didn't see in this comment thread. With imperative code, you can just spell out a for loop which makes intuitive sense. With functional code, you need to do so recursively, so you need at least some understanding of recursion, and perhaps even category theory for more complex examples or languages like Haskell. Just that kind of complexity over an imperative language alone is why I surmise that functional languages haven't reached as much popularity.
- thewakalix 5y ago
  You really don’t need to understand category theory to understand Haskell, or even recursion for simple examples. Recursion is frequently used to implement control structures that are either built-in or missing in imperative languages; users of these control structures don’t need to understand how they work. Which is simpler: for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) array[i]++; or map (+ 1) list Admittedly, most modern languages have something like foreach, but one of Haskell’s major advantages is that foreach can be implemented as a library function.
  - cercatrova 5y ago
    For most people, the first one is simpler. The second seems simpler to us as we've used functional languages, but there's a lot going on there. What is map? It's a function that acts on a structure using a function, ie a higher order function. What is (+ 1)? An anonymous function that will be used. Contrast this to the more natural idea of, for each item in the list, increment that value.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      You can argue exactly the same for the first example: what is for? Why is for a special construct and not a function? What is (int i = 0; i < n; i++)? What is array[i]++? What is n here? The functional approach allows you to only care about the what ("add 1 to each element of the list") instead of the how ("create a number that goes from 0 to the size of the list minus one (because our language is 0-indexed, because arrays are in fact directly related to how memory is laid out), then for each value of this number, take the value that's at this index in the array and increment it"). I'd argue that the functional approach is easier to learn, especially if you haven't had prior experience with programming. You also said earlier than functional is harder to learn because you have to use recursion to make for loop. That's not really true, you can just use functions like map which are already here. And when you start tackling recursive data structures like trees, recursion is easier to understand.
agumonkey 5y ago
Some easy factors: - crowd maturity (zero dev cared about safety in the web 2 era, cue wordpress cheese, people flocked to php or ruby because it was fun and easy, only later people started to make solid specs for their languages) - business-less ethos (I'd bet $10 FP dudes have zero desire nor skills to promote and sell their work) - culture shock (fp is somehow very rooted in math culture, how many times in the last 20 years did someone at a meeting or an OO class said "explictVerboseVariableNamePlease" ? compare that to fold f z [] = z fold f z [h:t] = fold f (f z h) t ) add various degrees of second degree effects like the fact that complex and hard to sell things don't attract funding, unlike wordpress you get less exposure. Maybe for the best because mainstream business interest would surely distort the original paradigm quest to fit whatever money-heavy requirement lands on someone's desk that day
- thewakalix 5y ago
  fold is a library function that is very general, and would be built-in in most other languages (if it existed at all). You wouldn’t write most functions like that. A long variable name only makes sense when the variable is specific. In fold, you have “a function”; nothing else can be said about it. And since working with “a function” is very common, Haskell programmers have converged on a shorthand for it: f. Sure, it’s harder for an entirely new programmer to understand, but every language has practices like this that need to be learned: take “i” in a for-loop in C.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    That's quite removed from reality. In java8+ you'd have to import a BiFunction class to be able to talk about a fold. Don't underestimate the mainstream.

jtwebman 5y ago

because they didn't have millions of dollars for marketing budgets or the one thing they did that could make startups make millions off their work.

goatinaboat 5y ago
because they didn't have millions of dollars for marketing budgets or the one thing they did that could make startups make millions off their work. If the French government had realised what they had in OCaml and made it the standard programming language in all of France they would be a software powerhouse by now.
- phtrivier 5y ago
  Back when I was a student (circa 2000), caml was one of the "official" language to teach computer science in the first few years leading to engineering school ; and in my case, it also happened to be the first language taught to everyone in my eng school. So I guess the acamedic world was trying it's best. I remember joking with a TA that no one would ever write a line a caml professionally ; I can't wait to be writing reason or caramel at a gig :) Happy birthday !
- agumonkey 5y ago
  I'd bet that if ocaml had been made the official proglang for all of France it would have died a slow death like ADA. French public sector is a swamp.
  - goatinaboat 5y ago
    French public sector is a swamp. They are, or were, capable of serious technical advances, such as Le Minitel being way ahead of its time.

pyrale 5y ago

Along other things, there was a heavy investment in marketing the languages that came at the same time as the likes of ocaml [1]. In more recent years, we've also seen that backing by a major company that can help building the ecosystem is a major factor, as happened with Go. Finally, some languages flourished because they offer access to a platform that would otherwise be inaccessible, as JS does. Overall, though, functional languages see progression today, they may not have an exponential growth, but neither did Python, and look where it is now. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2003/06/09/sun_preps_500m_java_brand/ https://www.theregister.com/2003/06/09/sun_preps_500m_java_b...

tooltower 5y ago

Ecosystem. It's not always about the language features, it's about how quickly I can get something working. Having a large, thriving ecosystem is a big part of that.

dudul 5y ago

What mainstream languages are you thinking about? Java is obviously the one that comes to mind when talking about market dominance, but it was created/supported by extremely wealthy corporations who invested hundreds of millions to push for its adoption. Do you have others in mind? I'm sure we can find fairly similar circumstances for most of them.

blacktriangle 5y ago
Much as people credit Sun's marketing for Java's success, I think it would have succeeded even without them. Java successfully brought garbage collection to the majority of working developers at the time who were all C and C++ developers. This was a huge step forward that solved a massive pain point. Today this is far less of a compelling argument since most languages are GC'd and C++ is far less dominant, but Java was the right language for the time.
- macintux 5y ago
  I recall a quote from an anonymous industry heavyweight when Java came out (paraphrased now because I can't remember exactly where I saw it): "Thank goodness, now I don't have to learn C++."
- pjmlp 5y ago
  There was another big factor, remember that ISO C++ initial release is from 1998 and while C was standardised in 1990, many compilers in the mid-90's were still catching up to it. Then POSIX still left too room for each UNIX flavour to decide how to actually implement certain features, e.g. signal. So Java, despite being initially interpreted felt like how portable code should be, coupled with a rich library.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > Java successfully brought garbage collection to the majority of working developers at the time who were all C and C++ developers. Isn't this what people refer as marketing? Other languages were garbage collected before Java. Common Lisp and SML both existed a decade before Java. There was also Smalltalk and Eiffel, but for them I've heard that Java being free really helped (which may be called marketing or not, but is still related to Sun money in a way).

legobmw99 5y ago

I’ll add an alternative answer to the variety you’ve gotten: functional programming is often given a bad name for not really corresponding to the way computers actually work. When you’re writing C, it can feel like the code you’re writing corresponds directly to the actual physical processes and components of the machine. The more higher level you get, the less you feel that (no Malloc in Java, for example), and functional languages are fully based on a model of computation that isn’t the one we physically have in the real world. This can also lead to speed and memory problems, though I think at this point the compilers for these languages are good enough that this is less of a concern than it may have been. It’s an interesting example of the Blub paradox [0] as well (Paul Graham’s answer to a similar question, “why doesn’t everyone use Lisp”) [0] https://wiki.c2.com/?BlubParadox https://wiki.c2.com/?BlubParadox

zopa 5y ago

That's really not the question. Any language that we've all heard of is pretty much by definition a wild success, comparatively. Most languages stay very small. There are very large first-mover advantages and network effects to programming languages. Programmers want to learn languages existing code is written in; companies want to use languages that lots of programmers already know. Languages that get big for historical reasons tend to stay that way. Mainstream adoption wasn't the main goal for a lot of functional languages when they were created: the aim was to develop ideas of how programming could be better. The surprising thing, really, is that people write real production in some of these languages, despite how different they are from what most programmers already know. We shouldn't be treating not getting as big as Java as some sort of failure.

chubot 5y ago

Programmers generally pick platforms and not languages. C became popular because of Unix and then Windows. JavaScript came with the browser. PHP came with shared hosting. Go sort of came with the "cloud". Java was made by an OS company, and it got new life with Android. So did Kotlin. Swift is for iOS, etc. There are exceptions like Python and Ruby, but I think the "default" is that a given language is not popular, and there have been almost no platforms written in functional languages. (anticipating the objection: Lisp isn't functional :) )

jolux 5y ago
Ruby got big because of Rails specifically.

fortran77 5y ago

F#? That's very popular.

jolux 5y ago
It's not really all that popular. Certainly not compared to C#.

cercatrova 5y ago

Functional languages are harder to learn than imperative languages, a big factor that I didn't see in this comment thread. With imperative code, you can just spell out a for loop which makes intuitive sense. With functional code, you need to do so recursively, so you need at least some understanding of recursion, and perhaps even category theory for more complex examples or languages like Haskell. Just that kind of complexity over an imperative language alone is why I surmise that functional languages haven't reached as much popularity.

thewakalix 5y ago
You really don’t need to understand category theory to understand Haskell, or even recursion for simple examples. Recursion is frequently used to implement control structures that are either built-in or missing in imperative languages; users of these control structures don’t need to understand how they work. Which is simpler: for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) array[i]++; or map (+ 1) list Admittedly, most modern languages have something like foreach, but one of Haskell’s major advantages is that foreach can be implemented as a library function.
- cercatrova 5y ago
  For most people, the first one is simpler. The second seems simpler to us as we've used functional languages, but there's a lot going on there. What is map? It's a function that acts on a structure using a function, ie a higher order function. What is (+ 1)? An anonymous function that will be used. Contrast this to the more natural idea of, for each item in the list, increment that value.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    You can argue exactly the same for the first example: what is for? Why is for a special construct and not a function? What is (int i = 0; i < n; i++)? What is array[i]++? What is n here? The functional approach allows you to only care about the what ("add 1 to each element of the list") instead of the how ("create a number that goes from 0 to the size of the list minus one (because our language is 0-indexed, because arrays are in fact directly related to how memory is laid out), then for each value of this number, take the value that's at this index in the array and increment it"). I'd argue that the functional approach is easier to learn, especially if you haven't had prior experience with programming. You also said earlier than functional is harder to learn because you have to use recursion to make for loop. That's not really true, you can just use functions like map which are already here. And when you start tackling recursive data structures like trees, recursion is easier to understand.

agumonkey 5y ago

Some easy factors: - crowd maturity (zero dev cared about safety in the web 2 era, cue wordpress cheese, people flocked to php or ruby because it was fun and easy, only later people started to make solid specs for their languages) - business-less ethos (I'd bet $10 FP dudes have zero desire nor skills to promote and sell their work) - culture shock (fp is somehow very rooted in math culture, how many times in the last 20 years did someone at a meeting or an OO class said "explictVerboseVariableNamePlease" ? compare that to fold f z [] = z fold f z [h:t] = fold f (f z h) t ) add various degrees of second degree effects like the fact that complex and hard to sell things don't attract funding, unlike wordpress you get less exposure. Maybe for the best because mainstream business interest would surely distort the original paradigm quest to fit whatever money-heavy requirement lands on someone's desk that day

thewakalix 5y ago
fold is a library function that is very general, and would be built-in in most other languages (if it existed at all). You wouldn’t write most functions like that. A long variable name only makes sense when the variable is specific. In fold, you have “a function”; nothing else can be said about it. And since working with “a function” is very common, Haskell programmers have converged on a shorthand for it: f. Sure, it’s harder for an entirely new programmer to understand, but every language has practices like this that need to be learned: take “i” in a for-loop in C.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  That's quite removed from reality. In java8+ you'd have to import a BiFunction class to be able to talk about a fold. Don't underestimate the mainstream.