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Classically trained pianist here (since 7 years old), I like the article's advice. > Use the correct fingering, dynamics, articulation, etc. from the very begi

Classically trained pianist here (since 7 years old), I like the article's advice. > Use the correct fingering, dynamics, articulation, etc. from the very beginning; you are never going to get around to “fixing” it later. When I was an impatient kid my piano teachers would keep insisting I play sections slow on a first pass, which annoyed me (it was like reading a book out loud slowly), but it was only until many years later when I played pieces like Un Sospiro[0] which are intractable if you do not start practicing at something like 16 times slower than performance tempo. If you start out correctly, the rest will follow, and IME, sight reading greatly improves as well. > [...] you may reach a point where you can’t play any faster, no matter how hard you try. What is likely happening is that the hand motions you are using—which come naturally at the slower tempo you started with—simply will not work at such high speeds. This is completely true, for instance, in ragtime, the left hand makes big, quick jumps and there is often no time to look at where it will land (which one likely does when playing slowly), so repeating a bar over and over again to incrementally refine your distance estimate is crucial. This applies to things like typing on a keyboard as well, if you focus on correct finger placement (and correct use of the 4th and 5th fingers), your WPM might take a hit for a few days or a week, but in the long term it really helps. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po_a1SmZKLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po_a1SmZKLs

turtlebits 5y ago
I think it all depends. I ignore dynamics and fingering when starting out, and I think for the most part, fingering doesn't really matter unless you are trying to play extremely fast sections, which pretty much require repetition to get right. FWIW, if I was learning Un Sospiro, I would just try get through the whole song. I played it at 1/2 speed and that seemed to be a reasonable attempt. Sometimes I feel if you have to follow the techniques in the OP, the song may be too challenging for you.
- siraben 5y ago
  Sure, for Un Sospiro there were definitely sections that were easy (first few pages are quite repetitive) so not much issue there, but there are runs in the middle where I practiced slowly for a while until it came naturally.
mcbuilder 5y ago
I'm a classically trained pianist as well, though a couple decades out of practice. My 10 year old son has been learning to play for the past couple years. As he learned his pieces he would fall into just horrible habits of wrong tempo dynamics, etc. So he gets to the end of his lesson book, good enough to play through the pieces but really only 20% done learning the pieces. So his teacher tells him to memorize the pieces. Good I think, so I have him go memorize each piece and give me a concert once a day. He's like 40% of the way there now, better but no where near close. So his teacher now says go learn with your eyes closed. _This_ made the difference. He plays with the correct rhythm, corrects any mistaken notes because well mistakes compound, even his dynamics sound right now. It's actually beginning to sound like actual music! For him I think closing the eyes got him out of his mentality of just rushing the pieces, it put him out of his comfort zone and that has made all the difference.
- spekcular 5y ago
  I was this kid, and I think I know exactly what's happening. He's playing the piano as if it were Guitar Hero or Dance Dance Revolution, as a game where the goal is to hit the right keys at the right time. Somehow you have to communicate the idea that the goal is to produce something that's enjoyable to listen to. Playing with eyes closed is something that I've never tried, but my guess is that it's forcing him to listen and that's why it works. (I need to try it myself!) What worked for me when I was a bit older is my teacher making me get a little handheld recorder (cheap ones were surprisingly good back then, and I'm sure the tech has improved). Try having him record the song and listen to the recording, and ask what he thinks. In particular, does it sound musical? Why or why not? My guess is that it'll reveal details he wasn't able to focus on while playing, and it will motivate him to fix them.
  - endymi0n 5y ago
    This resonates with me. One of the best advice from my organ teacher was to „stop playing the notes and start really listening to yourself.“ Closing my eyes really helped with removing all stimuli that distracted me from actually doing that and it made all the difference.
opheliate 5y ago
A bit off topic, but thank you so much for sharing Un Sospiro, wasn’t expecting to hear that much beauty this morning.
pmiller2 5y ago
Yes! My cello teacher told me “what you can only play slowly, you can eventually play fast; what you can only play wrong, you can’t play at all.” Keep in mind, this is a man who continued playing as a soloist in concert once after breaking his A string by playing high on his D string. You have to know the rules before you can break them well.
varrock 5y ago
As someone who doesn't play piano, what you were describing reminded me exactly of my typing experience. I'm glad to see you thought the same! You mentioned the 4th and 5th fingers on the keyboard specifically — what is the correct finger placement for those keys relative to what you think most people do?
- siraben 5y ago
  Can't speak for everyone, but for me, I realized I didn't use my right pinkie to hit backspace or left pinkie to hit tab, and likewise for my 4th fingers, so I would end up moving my wrist. After a bit of practice I didn't need to use my wrists as much and practically all the keys can be reached in this way.
  - prirun 5y ago
    I play piano and touch type pretty fast. This example, of using the right pinkie for Backspace, is a good analogy with piano fingering. I use my 4th finger for Backspace, not 5th (pinkie). While pinkie may seem logical at first, it is much shorter on my hand than 4th. To use 4th, I only have to move my wrist to the right. To use 5th, I have to move my whole arm toward the screen, which is a much bigger deal. Same kind of thing happens in piano fingering all the time. The other key thing about fingering is you don't want to stretch fingers if you can avoid it. Stretched fingers cause fatigue and fingers are less flexible when stretched. Try stretching your fingers apart and moving them quickly. So when finding a fingering, you want to group notes into comfortable hand positions, play what you can in that position, then move your hand to the next position. This is commonly called grouping and surfacing if you want to do some research. You also want to avoid playing with your wrist twisted to the far right or left. If your fingering requires a twisted wrist, the notes should probably be grouped a different way, which will also change the hand position and fingering you use.
jvvw 5y ago
I practice Feldenkrais which is partly about improving coordination of movement and practicing things slowly is one of the major ideas behind that. I watched an online talk earlier this week talking about the 'Weber-Fechner-Henneman Movement Optimization Cycle' as an explanation behind that. I haven't scrutinised the science - but there's info on page 28 of this PDF: https://www.feldenkraisguild.com/files/Journal_30.pdf https://www.feldenkraisguild.com/files/Journal_30.pdf
lovelyviking 5y ago
>Use the correct fingering How to figure out what is "correct" fingering and what is not? I asked some pianists that question and I've got 3 versions of answers from each of them followed by advice to try out and see what works for you. So what is "correct" fingering then?
- siraben 5y ago
  I think of it like a dynamic programming type situation. You have notes to be assigned fingers to and the metric is minimizing uncomfortable/awkward hand movements. So the specifics can vary from person to person (and hand to hand), but there are generally agreed upon fingerings for things like scales or chromatic runs.
  - lovelyviking 5y ago
    >there are generally agreed upon fingerings for things like scales or chromatic runs Can you point out to such "agreed" fingering somewhere? Because as a self learner I perhaps had no chance to know which one is it?
    - thaunatos 5y ago
      Here's an example fingering chart for major scales: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/36/98/203698fda995f78e86211897b07d3f36.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/36/98/203698fda995f78e8621... For the chromatic scale, I was taught to alternate 3 and 1, using 2 when there are two white keys in a row.
      - gabrielsroka 5y ago
        I learned it a little bit differently, for example https://youtu.be/twc_Yo4LFJI https://youtu.be/twc_Yo4LFJI
        lovelyviking 5y ago
        As I understand it's not different at all. Diagram shows how you play it continiously (not one octave only)
prirun 5y ago
Paul Barton's versions are intended for tutorials. For another take with better flow and melody line, try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSHwX2O7j2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSHwX2O7j2w World of difference IMO.
robomartin 5y ago
Early-on I taught my kids that “Practice makes perfect” is wrong. The right advice is “Practicing correctly makes perfect, because practice makes everything permanent, including mistakes”. This applies to music, chess, swimming, anything really. Start slow and in small chunks with a focus on “correct”, everything else takes care of itself.
- aynsof 5y ago
  I've heard this captured concisely as 'Practice makes permanent'.

turtlebits 5y ago

I think it all depends. I ignore dynamics and fingering when starting out, and I think for the most part, fingering doesn't really matter unless you are trying to play extremely fast sections, which pretty much require repetition to get right. FWIW, if I was learning Un Sospiro, I would just try get through the whole song. I played it at 1/2 speed and that seemed to be a reasonable attempt. Sometimes I feel if you have to follow the techniques in the OP, the song may be too challenging for you.

siraben 5y ago
Sure, for Un Sospiro there were definitely sections that were easy (first few pages are quite repetitive) so not much issue there, but there are runs in the middle where I practiced slowly for a while until it came naturally.

mcbuilder 5y ago

I'm a classically trained pianist as well, though a couple decades out of practice. My 10 year old son has been learning to play for the past couple years. As he learned his pieces he would fall into just horrible habits of wrong tempo dynamics, etc. So he gets to the end of his lesson book, good enough to play through the pieces but really only 20% done learning the pieces. So his teacher tells him to memorize the pieces. Good I think, so I have him go memorize each piece and give me a concert once a day. He's like 40% of the way there now, better but no where near close. So his teacher now says go learn with your eyes closed. _This_ made the difference. He plays with the correct rhythm, corrects any mistaken notes because well mistakes compound, even his dynamics sound right now. It's actually beginning to sound like actual music! For him I think closing the eyes got him out of his mentality of just rushing the pieces, it put him out of his comfort zone and that has made all the difference.

spekcular 5y ago
I was this kid, and I think I know exactly what's happening. He's playing the piano as if it were Guitar Hero or Dance Dance Revolution, as a game where the goal is to hit the right keys at the right time. Somehow you have to communicate the idea that the goal is to produce something that's enjoyable to listen to. Playing with eyes closed is something that I've never tried, but my guess is that it's forcing him to listen and that's why it works. (I need to try it myself!) What worked for me when I was a bit older is my teacher making me get a little handheld recorder (cheap ones were surprisingly good back then, and I'm sure the tech has improved). Try having him record the song and listen to the recording, and ask what he thinks. In particular, does it sound musical? Why or why not? My guess is that it'll reveal details he wasn't able to focus on while playing, and it will motivate him to fix them.
- endymi0n 5y ago
  This resonates with me. One of the best advice from my organ teacher was to „stop playing the notes and start really listening to yourself.“ Closing my eyes really helped with removing all stimuli that distracted me from actually doing that and it made all the difference.

opheliate 5y ago

A bit off topic, but thank you so much for sharing Un Sospiro, wasn’t expecting to hear that much beauty this morning.

pmiller2 5y ago

Yes! My cello teacher told me “what you can only play slowly, you can eventually play fast; what you can only play wrong, you can’t play at all.” Keep in mind, this is a man who continued playing as a soloist in concert once after breaking his A string by playing high on his D string. You have to know the rules before you can break them well.

varrock 5y ago

As someone who doesn't play piano, what you were describing reminded me exactly of my typing experience. I'm glad to see you thought the same! You mentioned the 4th and 5th fingers on the keyboard specifically — what is the correct finger placement for those keys relative to what you think most people do?

siraben 5y ago
Can't speak for everyone, but for me, I realized I didn't use my right pinkie to hit backspace or left pinkie to hit tab, and likewise for my 4th fingers, so I would end up moving my wrist. After a bit of practice I didn't need to use my wrists as much and practically all the keys can be reached in this way.
- prirun 5y ago
  I play piano and touch type pretty fast. This example, of using the right pinkie for Backspace, is a good analogy with piano fingering. I use my 4th finger for Backspace, not 5th (pinkie). While pinkie may seem logical at first, it is much shorter on my hand than 4th. To use 4th, I only have to move my wrist to the right. To use 5th, I have to move my whole arm toward the screen, which is a much bigger deal. Same kind of thing happens in piano fingering all the time. The other key thing about fingering is you don't want to stretch fingers if you can avoid it. Stretched fingers cause fatigue and fingers are less flexible when stretched. Try stretching your fingers apart and moving them quickly. So when finding a fingering, you want to group notes into comfortable hand positions, play what you can in that position, then move your hand to the next position. This is commonly called grouping and surfacing if you want to do some research. You also want to avoid playing with your wrist twisted to the far right or left. If your fingering requires a twisted wrist, the notes should probably be grouped a different way, which will also change the hand position and fingering you use.

jvvw 5y ago

I practice Feldenkrais which is partly about improving coordination of movement and practicing things slowly is one of the major ideas behind that. I watched an online talk earlier this week talking about the 'Weber-Fechner-Henneman Movement Optimization Cycle' as an explanation behind that. I haven't scrutinised the science - but there's info on page 28 of this PDF: https://www.feldenkraisguild.com/files/Journal_30.pdf https://www.feldenkraisguild.com/files/Journal_30.pdf

lovelyviking 5y ago

>Use the correct fingering How to figure out what is "correct" fingering and what is not? I asked some pianists that question and I've got 3 versions of answers from each of them followed by advice to try out and see what works for you. So what is "correct" fingering then?

siraben 5y ago
I think of it like a dynamic programming type situation. You have notes to be assigned fingers to and the metric is minimizing uncomfortable/awkward hand movements. So the specifics can vary from person to person (and hand to hand), but there are generally agreed upon fingerings for things like scales or chromatic runs.
- lovelyviking 5y ago
  >there are generally agreed upon fingerings for things like scales or chromatic runs Can you point out to such "agreed" fingering somewhere? Because as a self learner I perhaps had no chance to know which one is it?
  - thaunatos 5y ago
    Here's an example fingering chart for major scales: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/36/98/203698fda995f78e86211897b07d3f36.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/36/98/203698fda995f78e8621... For the chromatic scale, I was taught to alternate 3 and 1, using 2 when there are two white keys in a row.
    - gabrielsroka 5y ago
      I learned it a little bit differently, for example https://youtu.be/twc_Yo4LFJI https://youtu.be/twc_Yo4LFJI
      - lovelyviking 5y ago
        As I understand it's not different at all. Diagram shows how you play it continiously (not one octave only)

prirun 5y ago

Paul Barton's versions are intended for tutorials. For another take with better flow and melody line, try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSHwX2O7j2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSHwX2O7j2w World of difference IMO.

robomartin 5y ago

Early-on I taught my kids that “Practice makes perfect” is wrong. The right advice is “Practicing correctly makes perfect, because practice makes everything permanent, including mistakes”. This applies to music, chess, swimming, anything really. Start slow and in small chunks with a focus on “correct”, everything else takes care of itself.

aynsof 5y ago
I've heard this captured concisely as 'Practice makes permanent'.