4 ms·

thank you! the analysis from that thread which resonates best with me is the one quoting Elizabeth Warren and "The two income trap" https://news.ycombinator.c

by froh 5y ago

thank you! the analysis from that thread which resonates best with me is the one quoting Elizabeth Warren and "The two income trap" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15834496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15834496 housing prices, larger vehicle, or more vehicles, and other cost of living associated with more children are the private burden of the family. add to that the income loss of pregnancy and early motherhood and the cost of child care. and it becomes easily obvious that a young family calculates twice before having another child. and that's coming from a European country, where schooling is free. is anybody aware of an opportunity cost calculation for raising 1, 2, 3, 4 kids? what is the TCO, the true full package material impact of raising children? ideally per country?

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
I would also argue that there is a cultural expectation you don't let your kids just wander about and take care of themselves as people used to do decades ago makes it harder as well. Now if you aren't concerned there is a pedophile around every corner, you're the crazy one. If you don't take an instagram photo of your child every week, you clearly don't care much for your kids.
- maerF0x0 5y ago
  There's also a wide range of costs for kids extracurriculars. Programming could be nearly free (get a $200 computer of craigslist, add internet and electricity), soccer is relatively inexpensive. IMO one of the major costs is because parents use their kids as conspicuous consumption symbols. "My kid does BJJ, equestrian, and snowboarding cause they're #blessed..." (cringe). Personally, I'll be leveling with my kids, if they want something beyond the basics it's going to be up to them to find a way to pay for it. Soccer/basketball/swim lessons etc is in, super expensive clubs are out, and mom & dad's love for them is not a function of money spent.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - swearwolf 5y ago
    I grew up with my parents behaving as you are suggesting. Anything extracurricular I wanted to do, beyond a token cost, was my responsibility to pay for. That ended up having some consequences you might not be thinking of, so I thought I’d share them with you. 1.) It made me way less likely to try any extracurricular because I knew I’d have to work to pay for them. This includes several that I was really interested in and showed aptitude for. 2. I had a job from age 12 on. I started with a paper route, then a dishwashing job, then a cashier at a mini mart. The result was that I was tired - the dishwashing and mini mart gigs kept me out until close to midnight several days per week. My grades, and my interest in school took a nosedive. My parents couldn’t figure out why. They thought it so impressive that I was so industrious to have these jobs. They loved the bootstrap narrative. 3. Working jobs in food service introduced me to all manner of drugs and alcohol. I was a regular smoker by 15, and binge drank with my coworkers from 16-19, and I smoked weed every chance I got. I don’t really hold it against my parents consciously; they were older and really bought in to the bootstrap narrative. They genuinely thought I could work part time in the summer and pay for college, in the mid 2000s, just like my dad did in the 60s. But I do hold it against them subconsciously. I know there are things I really wanted to do back then that my family could hav afforded to pay for, and it’s a bitter pill to swallow knowing that they refused to out of misguided principles. I didn’t really realize that until I met my wife, who was told that it was her job to go to school and get good grades, not make money. Her parents didn’t spend lavishly on her, but if she could make a reasonable case for why she should have something they’d pay for it. When she told me that, it made my own parents way of dealing with these things really sting. Anyway, thought that might be interesting to you as a parent.
    - dmichulke 5y ago
      What extracurricular activities were this and how much did they cost to make you work until midnight and do drugs because of the stress? Do you think your drug use (+booze and cigarettes) became a considerable part of the costs that made you work so much? I come from a lower middle class family in a non-urban area and there were neither the jobs nor the activities (much less costly ones) nor any sort of pressure to do such activities. Yet I believe I was fine, I am doing now (25ys later) several such activities
    - 5y ago
- dmingod666 5y ago
  I don't have an Instagram account.
aidenn0 5y ago
At least in the US, opportunity costs are likely dwarfed by actual costs in many cases, particularly as you move up the income scale. Despite heavy assortative mating you do usually end up with income disparity between spouses, so you give up less than half of the income for the time(s) that the mother cannot work; when the opportunity cost becomes great enough, then paid child-care starts looking like a win. Lower on the income bracket child-care is often subsidezed. Then the richer you are, the more it is typical to spend on your kids. I live in an affluent area; my daughter just finished 6th grade and several of her friends are going to middle-schools with tuition in the low $30k range (yes, there is more than one in that price-range in town).

by froh 5y ago

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

I would also argue that there is a cultural expectation you don't let your kids just wander about and take care of themselves as people used to do decades ago makes it harder as well. Now if you aren't concerned there is a pedophile around every corner, you're the crazy one. If you don't take an instagram photo of your child every week, you clearly don't care much for your kids.

maerF0x0 5y ago
There's also a wide range of costs for kids extracurriculars. Programming could be nearly free (get a $200 computer of craigslist, add internet and electricity), soccer is relatively inexpensive. IMO one of the major costs is because parents use their kids as conspicuous consumption symbols. "My kid does BJJ, equestrian, and snowboarding cause they're #blessed..." (cringe). Personally, I'll be leveling with my kids, if they want something beyond the basics it's going to be up to them to find a way to pay for it. Soccer/basketball/swim lessons etc is in, super expensive clubs are out, and mom & dad's love for them is not a function of money spent.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- swearwolf 5y ago
  I grew up with my parents behaving as you are suggesting. Anything extracurricular I wanted to do, beyond a token cost, was my responsibility to pay for. That ended up having some consequences you might not be thinking of, so I thought I’d share them with you. 1.) It made me way less likely to try any extracurricular because I knew I’d have to work to pay for them. This includes several that I was really interested in and showed aptitude for. 2. I had a job from age 12 on. I started with a paper route, then a dishwashing job, then a cashier at a mini mart. The result was that I was tired - the dishwashing and mini mart gigs kept me out until close to midnight several days per week. My grades, and my interest in school took a nosedive. My parents couldn’t figure out why. They thought it so impressive that I was so industrious to have these jobs. They loved the bootstrap narrative. 3. Working jobs in food service introduced me to all manner of drugs and alcohol. I was a regular smoker by 15, and binge drank with my coworkers from 16-19, and I smoked weed every chance I got. I don’t really hold it against my parents consciously; they were older and really bought in to the bootstrap narrative. They genuinely thought I could work part time in the summer and pay for college, in the mid 2000s, just like my dad did in the 60s. But I do hold it against them subconsciously. I know there are things I really wanted to do back then that my family could hav afforded to pay for, and it’s a bitter pill to swallow knowing that they refused to out of misguided principles. I didn’t really realize that until I met my wife, who was told that it was her job to go to school and get good grades, not make money. Her parents didn’t spend lavishly on her, but if she could make a reasonable case for why she should have something they’d pay for it. When she told me that, it made my own parents way of dealing with these things really sting. Anyway, thought that might be interesting to you as a parent.
  - dmichulke 5y ago
    What extracurricular activities were this and how much did they cost to make you work until midnight and do drugs because of the stress? Do you think your drug use (+booze and cigarettes) became a considerable part of the costs that made you work so much? I come from a lower middle class family in a non-urban area and there were neither the jobs nor the activities (much less costly ones) nor any sort of pressure to do such activities. Yet I believe I was fine, I am doing now (25ys later) several such activities
  - 5y ago
dmingod666 5y ago
I don't have an Instagram account.

aidenn0 5y ago

At least in the US, opportunity costs are likely dwarfed by actual costs in many cases, particularly as you move up the income scale. Despite heavy assortative mating you do usually end up with income disparity between spouses, so you give up less than half of the income for the time(s) that the mother cannot work; when the opportunity cost becomes great enough, then paid child-care starts looking like a win. Lower on the income bracket child-care is often subsidezed. Then the richer you are, the more it is typical to spend on your kids. I live in an affluent area; my daughter just finished 6th grade and several of her friends are going to middle-schools with tuition in the low $30k range (yes, there is more than one in that price-range in town).