4 ms·

Do you think there's any level of taxation where a wealthy individual wouldn't want to do some "tax avoidance" in another jurisdiction? I suspect there is not.

Trias11 6y ago
"Other" jurisdictions are easily attracting capital from countries who are trigger happy to rob their citizens with taxes.
- Retric 6y ago
  People very rarely actually leave countries over tax policies. Countries pretend ignorance because of who’s benefiting, but unless they renounce citizenship moving money off shore is effectively symbolic. Loopholes for example aren’t some inherent element of tax codes their built and maintained for the express purpose of being used.
  - Trias11 6y ago
    Quite a few wealthy people do. Especially Canadians and non-americans who can. Why wouldn't person move outside of tax jurusdiction if it afford saving few extra $MM's and possibility to discover more beautiful, friendly countries? Of course US Citizenship essentially became IRS trap and renouncing it became very difficult thing to do for americans
    - Retric 6y ago
      Of Canadians top 10 wealthiest, 8 live in Canada, 2 are living in the US. That’s hardly an exodus to low tax countries. So sure, examples exist they simply don’t add up to a meaningful percentage. As to why they stay, making say 10% more money just isn’t worth much hassle to the rich. They have money what they want is all the things a well functioning society gives them.
techbio 6y ago
I suspect the more hands-on tools by which law and order is enforced such as asset seizure, 24/7 monitoring, discreditation, and prison time could be the motivation for otherwise tax averse entities to transparently contribute their exact tax proportion.
- gogopuppygogo 6y ago
  So enhancement of punishment and enforcement to allow government to redistribute wealth from some citizens to the government? I think we’ve seen this before… usually ends in democide… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
  - Dah00n 6y ago
    "enhancement of punishment and enforcement" is what the whole US justice system is built to do*, unlike systems in Northern Europe for example. *Except for white-collar crime.
- dkarras 6y ago
  It still won't work unless the whole world agrees to do it simultaneously. A classic game theory problem, the more some countries agree on it, the more benefit to those countries that don't do it. Because worst case, the rich entity can flee, or renounce citizenship and buy citizenship where the tax climate is more favorable. With the amount of money we are speaking about, you can buy anything. Each and every country has a very fast track to citizenship in exchange for money (and an instant path to pretty much all rights except for voting). So you threaten the wealthy with torture? Unless you do all this by surprise one day all of a sudden, they can and will escape.
  - Trias11 6y ago
    Definitely. $150k buys you a Carribean citizenship + passports for the family of 4. 0% income tax and 0% capital gains tax in Antigua and Barbuda. 365 sandy beaches. What not to love for freedom seeking individuals?
  - 6y ago
Trias11 6y ago
The lower the tax - the more money will stay and will be reinvested into the local economy. That should be easy to understand. Just as robbing productive people with taxes is not going to work.
- turbinerneiter 6y ago
  How do you pay for schools, police, firefighters in your tax-free world?
  - Trias11 6y ago
    Make tax rate 5% to keep ALL capital in local economy. And that better than losing 90% of capital away for good. Significantly reduce or offset personal and capital gain taxes for people who are investing into public projects. There are many more better ways that tax abusive policies that never work.
    - turbinerneiter 6y ago
      What? Reinvested money already isn't taxed. Companies pay taxes on profits. If they invest more, they reduce their taxable profit and therefore their taxes. Taxes are not deferring investments, investments are the prime way to pay less taxes. The government wants you to reinvest rather than pay taxes. Off-shore tax havens broke that system. These companies have billions of dollars sitting unproductively in the Bahamas because they neither want to invest not pay taxes.
- modo_mario 6y ago
  >The lower the tax - the more money will stay and will be reinvested into the local economy. The less progressive the tax and the less it's properly enforced the more inequality will occur. Poor and middleclass more effectively stimulate the economy with an equal amount of consumption simply due to the nature of what they spend it on and their quantity. >Just as robbing productive people with taxes is not going to work. How many of these are super productive, hardworking and/or smart to such an extent that their hard work and/or wonderful decision-making proportionally matches their wealth compared to you know your average middleclass engineers, programmers, medium and small business owners or the like. I'd estimate the percentage to be very small. And if their wealth somehow matches their productivity proportionally and above a certain amount quantifiable as ridiculously wealthy i'd start wondering where in the superhero universe these people fit.
csomar 6y ago
Direct taxation. Run on a road or highway? Pay a toll. Run a container through the ocean? Pay a fee for protection. Want to have nicer neighborhoods with better maintenance? Pay higher property taxes to your municipality. You can't escape direct taxation. And as long as you keep competition between companies, municipalities and jurisdictions; the system will balance itself where individuals will pay what they are comfortable with by their own volition. The current system is broken because a small bureaucratic minority has too much power over your own property (they can seize your property/money at random). It's also too easy to get popular votes and people onboard with it (free healthcare for everyone!).

Trias11 6y ago

"Other" jurisdictions are easily attracting capital from countries who are trigger happy to rob their citizens with taxes.

Retric 6y ago
People very rarely actually leave countries over tax policies. Countries pretend ignorance because of who’s benefiting, but unless they renounce citizenship moving money off shore is effectively symbolic. Loopholes for example aren’t some inherent element of tax codes their built and maintained for the express purpose of being used.
- Trias11 6y ago
  Quite a few wealthy people do. Especially Canadians and non-americans who can. Why wouldn't person move outside of tax jurusdiction if it afford saving few extra $MM's and possibility to discover more beautiful, friendly countries? Of course US Citizenship essentially became IRS trap and renouncing it became very difficult thing to do for americans
  - Retric 6y ago
    Of Canadians top 10 wealthiest, 8 live in Canada, 2 are living in the US. That’s hardly an exodus to low tax countries. So sure, examples exist they simply don’t add up to a meaningful percentage. As to why they stay, making say 10% more money just isn’t worth much hassle to the rich. They have money what they want is all the things a well functioning society gives them.

techbio 6y ago

I suspect the more hands-on tools by which law and order is enforced such as asset seizure, 24/7 monitoring, discreditation, and prison time could be the motivation for otherwise tax averse entities to transparently contribute their exact tax proportion.

gogopuppygogo 6y ago
So enhancement of punishment and enforcement to allow government to redistribute wealth from some citizens to the government? I think we’ve seen this before… usually ends in democide… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
- Dah00n 6y ago
  "enhancement of punishment and enforcement" is what the whole US justice system is built to do*, unlike systems in Northern Europe for example. *Except for white-collar crime.
dkarras 6y ago
It still won't work unless the whole world agrees to do it simultaneously. A classic game theory problem, the more some countries agree on it, the more benefit to those countries that don't do it. Because worst case, the rich entity can flee, or renounce citizenship and buy citizenship where the tax climate is more favorable. With the amount of money we are speaking about, you can buy anything. Each and every country has a very fast track to citizenship in exchange for money (and an instant path to pretty much all rights except for voting). So you threaten the wealthy with torture? Unless you do all this by surprise one day all of a sudden, they can and will escape.
- Trias11 6y ago
  Definitely. $150k buys you a Carribean citizenship + passports for the family of 4. 0% income tax and 0% capital gains tax in Antigua and Barbuda. 365 sandy beaches. What not to love for freedom seeking individuals?
- 6y ago

Trias11 6y ago

The lower the tax - the more money will stay and will be reinvested into the local economy. That should be easy to understand. Just as robbing productive people with taxes is not going to work.

turbinerneiter 6y ago
How do you pay for schools, police, firefighters in your tax-free world?
- Trias11 6y ago
  Make tax rate 5% to keep ALL capital in local economy. And that better than losing 90% of capital away for good. Significantly reduce or offset personal and capital gain taxes for people who are investing into public projects. There are many more better ways that tax abusive policies that never work.
  - turbinerneiter 6y ago
    What? Reinvested money already isn't taxed. Companies pay taxes on profits. If they invest more, they reduce their taxable profit and therefore their taxes. Taxes are not deferring investments, investments are the prime way to pay less taxes. The government wants you to reinvest rather than pay taxes. Off-shore tax havens broke that system. These companies have billions of dollars sitting unproductively in the Bahamas because they neither want to invest not pay taxes.
modo_mario 6y ago
>The lower the tax - the more money will stay and will be reinvested into the local economy. The less progressive the tax and the less it's properly enforced the more inequality will occur. Poor and middleclass more effectively stimulate the economy with an equal amount of consumption simply due to the nature of what they spend it on and their quantity. >Just as robbing productive people with taxes is not going to work. How many of these are super productive, hardworking and/or smart to such an extent that their hard work and/or wonderful decision-making proportionally matches their wealth compared to you know your average middleclass engineers, programmers, medium and small business owners or the like. I'd estimate the percentage to be very small. And if their wealth somehow matches their productivity proportionally and above a certain amount quantifiable as ridiculously wealthy i'd start wondering where in the superhero universe these people fit.

csomar 6y ago

Direct taxation. Run on a road or highway? Pay a toll. Run a container through the ocean? Pay a fee for protection. Want to have nicer neighborhoods with better maintenance? Pay higher property taxes to your municipality. You can't escape direct taxation. And as long as you keep competition between companies, municipalities and jurisdictions; the system will balance itself where individuals will pay what they are comfortable with by their own volition. The current system is broken because a small bureaucratic minority has too much power over your own property (they can seize your property/money at random). It's also too easy to get popular votes and people onboard with it (free healthcare for everyone!).