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This whole trial is being a huge mess. 1. Day 1 kids screaming on stream. 2. A ton of confidential third party data leaking. 3. Sony refusing cross platform

This whole trial is being a huge mess. 1. Day 1 kids screaming on stream. 2. A ton of confidential third party data leaking. 3. Sony refusing cross platform play because it wouldn't earn them money directly meanwhile they were claiming it was for technical reasons. 4. Tim Sweeney going off on a weird tangent trying to claim Fornite is a "metaverse" and not a game. 5. Judge getting annoyed with all the requests to seal records from a ton of companies. 6. Epic lawyer saying he wants a record sealed because he doesn't want to leak that Paradox is doing a deal with Epic. And Apple lawyer pointing out he just made his request pointless. 7. Epic paid so far 1 billion USD to convince devs to not sell in competitor stores. 8. Epic tried to convince Nintendo to sell on Epic Store (lol) 9. Apple lawyer pointing out that Epic bans rule breakers, and Epic broke rules.

mpalmer 5y ago
The metaverse point is sort of relevant, though. Epic has been trying to pin Apple down on their definition of a game. Apple says Roblox is permissible on the App Store, even though it's a user-generated content hub much like Fortnite.
- Pulcinella 5y ago
  But Fortnite wasn’t banned because it was or was not a game, it was banned because Apple alleged that Epic violated the App Store rules around payment.
  - setr 5y ago
    By adding in non-apple transactions. Which is what Robles apparently does as well, and has been allowed to do so for years. The defense from apple was apparently that roblox and Minecraft to do not in fact constitute games, whereas fortunate does, so the rules are different.
    - spiderice 5y ago
      I don’t know enough to outright refute your claims, but I’m guessing you’re getting something wrong or leaving out an important detail (unintentionally). Apple doesn’t allow non-game apps selling digital goods to circumvent the 30%. So whether or not fortnite is a game or not seems irrelevant. I would be shocked if I could enter in a credit card number and buy something inside roblox without going through Apple.
      - jareklupinski 5y ago
        There are Roblox gift cards that you can purchase at other retailers, which can be redeemed through a browser to credit the same account that you log into from the mobile app: https://en.help.roblox.com/hc/en-us/articles/203312720-Where-can-I-find-Roblox-Gift-Cards- https://en.help.roblox.com/hc/en-us/articles/203312720-Where... So it's not really entering a credit card number per se; it's more like giving someone else your credit card number so they can give you another number that you type into a different portal to make the digital goods "appear" on the iOS app. Why are they making children jump through all these hoops just to enjoy an online video game https://en.help.roblox.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005566223 https://en.help.roblox.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005566223
        Despegar 5y ago
        Anyone can purchase currency outside of the App Store and use it in their iOS app, including Fortnite. Roblox doesn't bypass Apple's IAP requirement at all.
        spiderice 5y ago
        This sounds like exactly how you can do it in fortnite already.
        JiNCMG 5y ago
        And to further refute Epic's fanbase. Purchasing the vbucks outside of the App Store did not reduce the cost.
elliekelly 5y ago
It seems Epic put more energy into the commercial announcing the trial than they put into the actual trial. I’m rooting for them but I really don’t know what they’re doing or how they’ve lost control of the narrative so badly so early on. Maybe they underestimated Goliath’s PR machine? I don’t envy their legal team trying to regroup this weekend.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  It's a sure-to-lose lawsuit launched in the hopes of motivating a Congress strongly influenced by an anti-tech, anti-corporate progressive insurgency in the ruling party and, oh yeah, a global pandemic. I appreciate Epic's position, and would support it if it had been litigated through the legislature. But as it is, it's a flagrant waste of our courts' time, a public resource.
  - shephardjhon 5y ago
    Its not anti-tech or anti-corpprate, its anti-monopoly. Remember its two huge corporations fighting this battle, Epic isn't some innocent tiny startup but in this case they have a point that Apple and Google have too much control and the fight has already resulted in smaller developers getting more share of their sales on the two app stores.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > Its not anti-tech or anti-corpprate, its anti-monopoly Sorry for being unclear, I was referring to the current mood in Congress. Epic has tailwinds in there being a desire to reign in Big Tech. It has headwinds in being, itself, a tech company. That balance is, on the net, favourable to Epic. But marginally favourable isn’t a great position to be in when it comes to policy in a crowded legislative session.
    - speeder 5y ago
      Epic is certainly not anti-monopoly. And Apple is actually trashing them in court because of that. For example Apple lawyer asked if Epic would have accepted a deal where Apple maintained the current ecosystem but let Epic have an exception... Epic said yes. At another point Apple asked difference between them, Xbox, Switch, etc..., Epic said that because consoles are sold at loss they having a monopoly is fine... so that is a bad argument if you are trying to prove you are anti-monopoly. And this goes on and on... Then there is the fact Epic paid 1 billion USD to developers not sell in other stores, including in some cases to break contracts to do so (for example kickstarted games, that promised Steam delivery, and then told the people that paid them that it would be Epic only and there would be no refunds).
planb 5y ago
> 4. Tim Sweeney going off on a weird tangent trying to claim Fornite is a "metaverse" and not a game. I’m quite sure that’s really his plan though. During the pandemic, my 12 year old son hung out with his friends on fortnite, and I had a feeling that “being together” was more important than the game itself. I think there’s more potential in becoming the Oasis than being just an online shooter and Sweeney sees that, but he needs iOS (and mini transactions without a middleman) to pull that off. That’s why they’re going all in on this.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rowanG077 5y ago
  Isn't this trivially true for any online game though? I played Counter Strike for quite some time with the same group of people. And looking back, It's not like I disliked Counter Strike. But I would have never even played closed to the amount of hours if I didn't have that group of people.
  - robben1234 5y ago
    Sitting in a lobby chatting on Discord with the team while waiting for someone to come back from a "short" afk is literally half of my hours in CS:GO. Not even gonna count the amount of time spent just running around Dalaran in World of Warcraft while on voice with guildmates.
  - aranelsurion 5y ago
    I'm not big on Fortnite but iirc they had some events like virtual concerts etc. in game. This signals to me they're more interested in being that "metaverse" than, say, CS:GO.
  - astrange 5y ago
    It's oddly not true for previous attempts at the thing, though - Second Life was not very popular. (I think because originality is too much effort and the client performance was poor) Also, previous metaverses were only popular among specific demographics, like perverts/furries, or suburban teenage boys.
antihero 5y ago
Ah, greed.
jjcon 5y ago
>8. Epic tried to convince Nintendo to sell on Epic Store (lol) This didn't happen, Epic specifically said they were NOT in talks with nintendo
- BoysenberryPi 5y ago
  This is a lie because The World Ends With You NEO is coming to PC via the Epic Game Store. Maybe this is lawyer speak for "we were in talks but we have a deal so we are not in talks any more"
  - jogu 5y ago
    Neo: TWEWY is made and published by Square Enix. Why would this imply they had talks with Nintendo?
    - BoysenberryPi 5y ago
      That's my mistake. I knew it was developed my Square Enix but for some reason I thought it was published by Nintendo. My fault I should've double checked.
  - wodenokoto 5y ago
    > Neo: The World Ends With You is an upcoming action role-playing game developed and published by Square Enix. Doesn't sound like it's a Nintendo game. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo:_The_World_Ends_With_You https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo:_The_World_Ends_With_You
void_mint 5y ago
> 7. Epic paid so far 1 billion USD to convince devs to not sell in competitor stores. This is kind of a toxic disingenuous spin on store exclusives, no?
- Laforet 5y ago
  I'm not sure about that. If I had an axe to grind I'd probably write something like "Epic paid so far 1 billion USD to bribe, coerce, directly incite and enable game developers and publishers to abandon previous commitments and break existing contracts, in a concerted effort to make said games not available on certain platforms such as Steam for as long as possible"[0] [0]:Metro Exodus was supposed to be an EGS exclusive for a year but they released it on Microsoft windows store in less than 6 months. We all KNEW what was this fuss really about.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    Can you explain how this post is again not just a toxic disingenuous misrepresentation of store exclusives?
    - Laforet 5y ago
      Can you point out which part of my statement and the one above has been misrepresenting the facts? "Epic Exclusive on PC" does not translate well into "Available anywhere but not Steam".
      - void_mint 5y ago
        ...what? "Epic Exclusive on PC" means not available on Steam But what does that have to with all of the other things you said? You're just saying derogatory comments about store exclusives without saying why you think they're bad.
        Laforet 5y ago
        Well let's see: Metro Exodus: Originally slanted to release on steam in Feb 2019 with preorders starting in Aug 2018. Publisher suddenly announced the game will be EGS exclusive only 2 weeks head of this date with the explicit promise "Metro Exodus will return to Steam and on other store fronts after 14 February 2020." This turned out to be a bold faced lie as they quietly made the game available through the Windows Store in Jun 2020. Anno 1800: Originally planned for release on Steam and Uplay. Switched to EGS "exclusive" very shortly before release without warning. Still not available on steam to this day unless you have preordered before the switch. Best part of this "exclusive" deal was that it has always been available on PC through Uplay, but gettig it back on steam is a no-no. https://twitter.com/anno_en/status/1311215185114300416?lang=en https://twitter.com/anno_en/status/1311215185114300416?lang=... I could go on but after seeing how Epic had behaved in this market for the last couple for years I find it very hard to accept any excuse they make in good faith.
ece 5y ago
I hope finding out how much an Xbox really costs isn't too much to ask for after these disclosures.
johnnyanmac 5y ago
3,7, and 8 aren't related to the trial. And 8 is normal business practice with little reprecussion (not unlike how Microsoft attempted to buy Nintendo 20 years ago). I believe they even called the point a "moonshot", so it's not like Epic had high hopes.

mpalmer 5y ago

The metaverse point is sort of relevant, though. Epic has been trying to pin Apple down on their definition of a game. Apple says Roblox is permissible on the App Store, even though it's a user-generated content hub much like Fortnite.

Pulcinella 5y ago
But Fortnite wasn’t banned because it was or was not a game, it was banned because Apple alleged that Epic violated the App Store rules around payment.
- setr 5y ago
  By adding in non-apple transactions. Which is what Robles apparently does as well, and has been allowed to do so for years. The defense from apple was apparently that roblox and Minecraft to do not in fact constitute games, whereas fortunate does, so the rules are different.
  - spiderice 5y ago
    I don’t know enough to outright refute your claims, but I’m guessing you’re getting something wrong or leaving out an important detail (unintentionally). Apple doesn’t allow non-game apps selling digital goods to circumvent the 30%. So whether or not fortnite is a game or not seems irrelevant. I would be shocked if I could enter in a credit card number and buy something inside roblox without going through Apple.
    - jareklupinski 5y ago
      There are Roblox gift cards that you can purchase at other retailers, which can be redeemed through a browser to credit the same account that you log into from the mobile app: https://en.help.roblox.com/hc/en-us/articles/203312720-Where-can-I-find-Roblox-Gift-Cards- https://en.help.roblox.com/hc/en-us/articles/203312720-Where... So it's not really entering a credit card number per se; it's more like giving someone else your credit card number so they can give you another number that you type into a different portal to make the digital goods "appear" on the iOS app. Why are they making children jump through all these hoops just to enjoy an online video game https://en.help.roblox.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005566223 https://en.help.roblox.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005566223
      - Despegar 5y ago
        Anyone can purchase currency outside of the App Store and use it in their iOS app, including Fortnite. Roblox doesn't bypass Apple's IAP requirement at all.
      - spiderice 5y ago
        This sounds like exactly how you can do it in fortnite already.
        JiNCMG 5y ago
        And to further refute Epic's fanbase. Purchasing the vbucks outside of the App Store did not reduce the cost.

elliekelly 5y ago

It seems Epic put more energy into the commercial announcing the trial than they put into the actual trial. I’m rooting for them but I really don’t know what they’re doing or how they’ve lost control of the narrative so badly so early on. Maybe they underestimated Goliath’s PR machine? I don’t envy their legal team trying to regroup this weekend.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
It's a sure-to-lose lawsuit launched in the hopes of motivating a Congress strongly influenced by an anti-tech, anti-corporate progressive insurgency in the ruling party and, oh yeah, a global pandemic. I appreciate Epic's position, and would support it if it had been litigated through the legislature. But as it is, it's a flagrant waste of our courts' time, a public resource.
- shephardjhon 5y ago
  Its not anti-tech or anti-corpprate, its anti-monopoly. Remember its two huge corporations fighting this battle, Epic isn't some innocent tiny startup but in this case they have a point that Apple and Google have too much control and the fight has already resulted in smaller developers getting more share of their sales on the two app stores.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Its not anti-tech or anti-corpprate, its anti-monopoly Sorry for being unclear, I was referring to the current mood in Congress. Epic has tailwinds in there being a desire to reign in Big Tech. It has headwinds in being, itself, a tech company. That balance is, on the net, favourable to Epic. But marginally favourable isn’t a great position to be in when it comes to policy in a crowded legislative session.
  - speeder 5y ago
    Epic is certainly not anti-monopoly. And Apple is actually trashing them in court because of that. For example Apple lawyer asked if Epic would have accepted a deal where Apple maintained the current ecosystem but let Epic have an exception... Epic said yes. At another point Apple asked difference between them, Xbox, Switch, etc..., Epic said that because consoles are sold at loss they having a monopoly is fine... so that is a bad argument if you are trying to prove you are anti-monopoly. And this goes on and on... Then there is the fact Epic paid 1 billion USD to developers not sell in other stores, including in some cases to break contracts to do so (for example kickstarted games, that promised Steam delivery, and then told the people that paid them that it would be Epic only and there would be no refunds).

planb 5y ago

> 4. Tim Sweeney going off on a weird tangent trying to claim Fornite is a "metaverse" and not a game. I’m quite sure that’s really his plan though. During the pandemic, my 12 year old son hung out with his friends on fortnite, and I had a feeling that “being together” was more important than the game itself. I think there’s more potential in becoming the Oasis than being just an online shooter and Sweeney sees that, but he needs iOS (and mini transactions without a middleman) to pull that off. That’s why they’re going all in on this.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rowanG077 5y ago
Isn't this trivially true for any online game though? I played Counter Strike for quite some time with the same group of people. And looking back, It's not like I disliked Counter Strike. But I would have never even played closed to the amount of hours if I didn't have that group of people.
- robben1234 5y ago
  Sitting in a lobby chatting on Discord with the team while waiting for someone to come back from a "short" afk is literally half of my hours in CS:GO. Not even gonna count the amount of time spent just running around Dalaran in World of Warcraft while on voice with guildmates.
- aranelsurion 5y ago
  I'm not big on Fortnite but iirc they had some events like virtual concerts etc. in game. This signals to me they're more interested in being that "metaverse" than, say, CS:GO.
- astrange 5y ago
  It's oddly not true for previous attempts at the thing, though - Second Life was not very popular. (I think because originality is too much effort and the client performance was poor) Also, previous metaverses were only popular among specific demographics, like perverts/furries, or suburban teenage boys.

antihero 5y ago

Ah, greed.

jjcon 5y ago

>8. Epic tried to convince Nintendo to sell on Epic Store (lol) This didn't happen, Epic specifically said they were NOT in talks with nintendo

BoysenberryPi 5y ago
This is a lie because The World Ends With You NEO is coming to PC via the Epic Game Store. Maybe this is lawyer speak for "we were in talks but we have a deal so we are not in talks any more"
- jogu 5y ago
  Neo: TWEWY is made and published by Square Enix. Why would this imply they had talks with Nintendo?
  - BoysenberryPi 5y ago
    That's my mistake. I knew it was developed my Square Enix but for some reason I thought it was published by Nintendo. My fault I should've double checked.
- wodenokoto 5y ago
  > Neo: The World Ends With You is an upcoming action role-playing game developed and published by Square Enix. Doesn't sound like it's a Nintendo game. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo:_The_World_Ends_With_You https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo:_The_World_Ends_With_You

void_mint 5y ago

> 7. Epic paid so far 1 billion USD to convince devs to not sell in competitor stores. This is kind of a toxic disingenuous spin on store exclusives, no?

Laforet 5y ago
I'm not sure about that. If I had an axe to grind I'd probably write something like "Epic paid so far 1 billion USD to bribe, coerce, directly incite and enable game developers and publishers to abandon previous commitments and break existing contracts, in a concerted effort to make said games not available on certain platforms such as Steam for as long as possible"[0] [0]:Metro Exodus was supposed to be an EGS exclusive for a year but they released it on Microsoft windows store in less than 6 months. We all KNEW what was this fuss really about.
- void_mint 5y ago
  Can you explain how this post is again not just a toxic disingenuous misrepresentation of store exclusives?
  - Laforet 5y ago
    Can you point out which part of my statement and the one above has been misrepresenting the facts? "Epic Exclusive on PC" does not translate well into "Available anywhere but not Steam".
    - void_mint 5y ago
      ...what? "Epic Exclusive on PC" means not available on Steam But what does that have to with all of the other things you said? You're just saying derogatory comments about store exclusives without saying why you think they're bad.
      - Laforet 5y ago
        Well let's see: Metro Exodus: Originally slanted to release on steam in Feb 2019 with preorders starting in Aug 2018. Publisher suddenly announced the game will be EGS exclusive only 2 weeks head of this date with the explicit promise "Metro Exodus will return to Steam and on other store fronts after 14 February 2020." This turned out to be a bold faced lie as they quietly made the game available through the Windows Store in Jun 2020. Anno 1800: Originally planned for release on Steam and Uplay. Switched to EGS "exclusive" very shortly before release without warning. Still not available on steam to this day unless you have preordered before the switch. Best part of this "exclusive" deal was that it has always been available on PC through Uplay, but gettig it back on steam is a no-no. https://twitter.com/anno_en/status/1311215185114300416?lang=en https://twitter.com/anno_en/status/1311215185114300416?lang=... I could go on but after seeing how Epic had behaved in this market for the last couple for years I find it very hard to accept any excuse they make in good faith.

ece 5y ago

I hope finding out how much an Xbox really costs isn't too much to ask for after these disclosures.

johnnyanmac 5y ago

3,7, and 8 aren't related to the trial. And 8 is normal business practice with little reprecussion (not unlike how Microsoft attempted to buy Nintendo 20 years ago). I believe they even called the point a "moonshot", so it's not like Epic had high hopes.