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C is perfect for these problems. I like teaching the endian serialization problem because it broaches so many of the topics that are key to understanding C/C++

by jart 6y ago

C is perfect for these problems. I like teaching the endian serialization problem because it broaches so many of the topics that are key to understanding C/C++ in general. Even if we choose to spend the majority of our time plumbing together functions written by better men, it's nice to understand how the language is defined so we could write those functions, even if we don't need to.

nly 6y ago
For sure, it's a good way to teach that C is insufficient to deal with even the simplest of tasks. Unfortunately teaching has a bad habit of becoming practice, no matter how good the intention. With regard to teaching C++ specifically I tend to agree with this talk: CppCon 2015 - Kate Gregory “Stop Teaching C": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnWhqhNdYyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnWhqhNdYyk
- jart 6y ago
  One of her slides was titled "Stop teaching pointers!" too. My VP back at my old job snapped at me once because I got too excited about the pointer abstractions provided by modern C++. Ever since that day I try to take a more rational approach to writing native code where I consider what it looks like in binary and I've configured my Emacs so it can do what clang.godbolt.org does in a single keystroke.
  - nly 6y ago
    For the record, she's not really saying people shouldn't learn this low level stuff... just that 'intro to C++' shouldn't be teaching this stuff first The biggest problem with C++ in industry is that people tend to write "C/C++" when it deserves to be recognized as a language in its own right.
    - jart 6y ago
      One does not simply introduce C++. It's the most insanely hardcore language there is. I wouldn't have stood any chance understanding it had it not been for my gentle introduction with C for several years.
      - SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
        C++ makes Rust look easy to learn.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Really? Apparently the first year students at my university didn't had any issue going from Standard Pascal to C++, in the mid-90's. Proper C++ was taught using our string, vector and collection classes, given that we were still a couple of years away from ISO C++ being fully defined. C style programming with low level tricks were only introduced later as advanced topics. Apparently thousands of students managed to get going the remaining 5 years of the degree.
        BenjiWiebe 6y ago
        C++ in the mid 90s was a lot simpler than C++ now.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        No one obliges you to write C++20 with SFINAE template meta-programming, using classes with CTAD constructors. Just like no Python newbie is able to master Python 3.9 full language set, standard library, numpy, pandas, django,...
        jart 6y ago
        Well there's a reason universities switched to Java when teaching algorithms and containers after the 90's. C++ is a weaker abstraction that encourages the kind of curiosity that's going to cause a student's brain to melt the moment they try to figure out how things work and encounter the sorts of demons the coursework hasn't prepared them to face. If I was going to teach it, I'd start with octal machine codes and work my way up. https://justine.lol/blinkenlights/realmode.html https://justine.lol/blinkenlights/realmode.html Sort of like if I were to teach TypeScript then I'd start with JavaScript. My approach to native development probably has more in common with web development than it does with modern c++ practices to be honest, and that's something I talk about in one of my famous hacks: https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/blob/4577f7fe11e5d8ef0a50ffeac438f1235b5265b3/ape/ape.lds#L119-L121 https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/blob/4577f7fe11e5d8ef0a...
microtherion 6y ago
Yes, there is some value in using C for teaching these concepts. But the problem I see is that, once taught, many people will then continue to use C and their hand written byte swapping functions, instead of moving on to languages with better abstraction facilities and/or availing themselves of the (as you point out) many available library implementations of this functionality.

by jart 6y ago

nly 6y ago

For sure, it's a good way to teach that C is insufficient to deal with even the simplest of tasks. Unfortunately teaching has a bad habit of becoming practice, no matter how good the intention. With regard to teaching C++ specifically I tend to agree with this talk: CppCon 2015 - Kate Gregory “Stop Teaching C": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnWhqhNdYyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnWhqhNdYyk

jart 6y ago
One of her slides was titled "Stop teaching pointers!" too. My VP back at my old job snapped at me once because I got too excited about the pointer abstractions provided by modern C++. Ever since that day I try to take a more rational approach to writing native code where I consider what it looks like in binary and I've configured my Emacs so it can do what clang.godbolt.org does in a single keystroke.
- nly 6y ago
  For the record, she's not really saying people shouldn't learn this low level stuff... just that 'intro to C++' shouldn't be teaching this stuff first The biggest problem with C++ in industry is that people tend to write "C/C++" when it deserves to be recognized as a language in its own right.
  - jart 6y ago
    One does not simply introduce C++. It's the most insanely hardcore language there is. I wouldn't have stood any chance understanding it had it not been for my gentle introduction with C for several years.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
      C++ makes Rust look easy to learn.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Really? Apparently the first year students at my university didn't had any issue going from Standard Pascal to C++, in the mid-90's. Proper C++ was taught using our string, vector and collection classes, given that we were still a couple of years away from ISO C++ being fully defined. C style programming with low level tricks were only introduced later as advanced topics. Apparently thousands of students managed to get going the remaining 5 years of the degree.
      - BenjiWiebe 6y ago
        C++ in the mid 90s was a lot simpler than C++ now.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        No one obliges you to write C++20 with SFINAE template meta-programming, using classes with CTAD constructors. Just like no Python newbie is able to master Python 3.9 full language set, standard library, numpy, pandas, django,...
      - jart 6y ago
        Well there's a reason universities switched to Java when teaching algorithms and containers after the 90's. C++ is a weaker abstraction that encourages the kind of curiosity that's going to cause a student's brain to melt the moment they try to figure out how things work and encounter the sorts of demons the coursework hasn't prepared them to face. If I was going to teach it, I'd start with octal machine codes and work my way up. https://justine.lol/blinkenlights/realmode.html https://justine.lol/blinkenlights/realmode.html Sort of like if I were to teach TypeScript then I'd start with JavaScript. My approach to native development probably has more in common with web development than it does with modern c++ practices to be honest, and that's something I talk about in one of my famous hacks: https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/blob/4577f7fe11e5d8ef0a50ffeac438f1235b5265b3/ape/ape.lds#L119-L121 https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/blob/4577f7fe11e5d8ef0a...

microtherion 6y ago

Yes, there is some value in using C for teaching these concepts. But the problem I see is that, once taught, many people will then continue to use C and their hand written byte swapping functions, instead of moving on to languages with better abstraction facilities and/or availing themselves of the (as you point out) many available library implementations of this functionality.