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I often reflect on the similiarities to that and how techno and house became EDM. When I started going to Midwestern raves in the 1990s they were literally som

I often reflect on the similiarities to that and how techno and house became EDM. When I started going to Midwestern raves in the 1990s they were literally some of the first fully integrated places I hung out in. Definitely some of the Detroit techno parties we went too, some of the first places where it was a majority Black space. EDM now is thought of as this totally white music, all electronic music really, by everyone. Oh some rappers might flirt with some electronic beats, but the whole genre has just been whitewashed basically. But for some of those years in the 1990s it really felt like we were living in the future. Hopped up on smart drinks (and LSD), gay and straight, black and white, talking about this new thing called the internet and dancing all night together. We were it - the New Humans…

crucialfelix 5y ago
I was in the 90s Midwest rave scene as well. This pattern repeats itself in music over and over. Jungle to DNB. Dubstep was like two tone, then it got destroyed by the US market takeover. Garage, grime, dancehall, hip hop all stay mainly black (with some white artists accepted) to defend their scene. Precisely to stop the take over from happening again.
- hntroll999 5y ago
  This leftist style of racist crap is normal and accepted on HN now, isn't it?
  - stuaxo 5y ago
    This is just name calling and doesn't address any of the points, which are all valid - for anyone who pays attention to music.
    - hntroll999 5y ago
      It's not just name-calling, it's accurately naming somebody's fallacy. The actual process that goes on with music and all other phenomena is that they change and eventually "die" in that nobody cares about them anymore. It happens with everything, and there is no villain.
    - pjc50 5y ago
      Don't feed the troll, just downvote and move on.
      - hntroll999 5y ago
        HN has really become despicable. If people had integrity or guts, they'd take my comment apart and show everyone how wrong it was. But they can't do that, so they just hide what I said. Don't you feel ashamed? Why are people so afraid to put the strength of their ideas to the test? I really pity people who would put their hand over the mouth of someone calling out fashionable racism for what it is.
      - dang 5y ago
        Better yet, flag, as described here: "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag If no one takes the flamebait, there won't be any flamewar.
- yoz-y 5y ago
  With streaming, what does make a genre more or less appreciated by a group of people? TBH for most of the artists I listen to, I have no idea who they are, how they look like or even how many of them are in the band.
  - ehnto 5y ago
    I think the musical styles and their in the flesh club/rave scenes are getting conflated a bit. Music is often born in a specific location and scene and then grows into it's own monster. Especially now with the internet, music is for everyone. But locally speaking there are different groups listening and producing styles of music you may not even know about yet, that will enter the global lexicon of music and get much the same treatment of commercialization as house and others got.
- ehnto 5y ago
  I thought the Jungle/DnB split was just the result of cocaine getting popular and the Jungle scene wanting none of that, but I wasn't there so I only have third party accounts to go off. Remembering as well that these musical styles live on and elevated above their once-upon a time rave/club scenes. So this is commentary specifically about the club scenes in the UK at their time of provenance.
failwhaleshark 5y ago
First: The parent comment is stereotyping and racist. Edit: they changed their comment to remove some racism (use of "white" and "whitewashing") but are still racist. They don't understand what EDM is: the superset of most electronic music. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_dance_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_dance_music In my opinion, the phylogeny of EDM and related genres looks like this: Funk beget disco and boogie. Funk and boogie beget electro. Disco and boogie beget house. Electro beget techno. Electro and funk beget breakbeat. House and techno beget trance. (Trance and its subgenres (like acid trance) and deep progressive house are/were what raves were made of.) Calypso beget ska. Ska beget reggae. Reggae beget dub. Dub and breakbeat beget dubstep. Dubstep != brostep. (Brostep is crapstep.) Reggae, rock, and rockabilly beget punk. Funk, disco, jazz, and punk beget hip hop. Hip hop beget trap. Dubstep and trap beget EDM trap. --- DigitallyImported had zillions of genres, subgenres, and maybe genres of EDM.
- bitwize 5y ago
  EDM is its own separate thing now, it basically means "radio pop with a four-on-the-floor beat and synths".
  - failwhaleshark 5y ago
    No. Just no. You can redefine terms but this doesn't make it so. Edit: "Despite the industry's attempt to create a specific EDM brand, the initialism remains in use as an umbrella term for multiple genres, including dance-pop, house, techno and electro, as well as their respective subgenres." - Wikipedia. Wikipedia being right for a change, this is industry BS. Don't buy it like a willing consumer.
    - jorvi 5y ago
      What, no? At least in Europe, EDM is a specific set of big club / festival House that's all about big bombastic bass drops. If one of my Techno buddies says with disdain 'all they were playing at that place was EDM' I know exactly what he means, and it isn't techno
pupdogg 5y ago
Motor City Lounge brings back good old memories! Still a fan of AUX88 to this day.
ehnto 5y ago
Hm I don't quite agree but it could be that the scenes are different in different places. It could also be that our definitions of EDM differ. I might also be missing something so take my comment as just my perspective from where I stand. I think there is a split between commercialized EDM and "real" EDM. The true culture and heritage of house and techno definitely live on in the greater electronic music scene in general, especially online and in clubs. I call that scene EDM because it is easier than trying list all the dozens of subgenres it has grown to include, and commercialised EDM used to be referred to as Top40 during the late 2000s, as a way to differentiate it from the "real" EDM scene. Not sure if that term lives on. It is usually pretty easy to tell when a song exists in the commercial realm. House is unique in that it has had more than one era of commercial success, but I think there has always been a delineation between commercialised house (stuff on the radio and in adverts) and the culture of house music (in the clubs and mixes)
- dijksterhuis 5y ago
  > I think there is a split between commercialized EDM and "real" EDM. This could be a locale thing, but in the UK what you call "real" EDM is often known as the underground electronic music scene (at least in my circles). I.e. the long tail of folks pissing about with machines in their bedroom. Note the lack of "dance" as not all underground electronic music needs to be danced to. Autechre is a good example of this. In the UK at least, EDM as a whole is often viewed as a commercialisation that started over in the USA (e.g. with Skrillex) and spread. What the EDM term generally refers to has changed over the years, and is now closer to "pop trance with super saw synths EVERYWHERE" these days. So, at least for us Brits, it's a catch all term for a specific type of electronic music (and most of the time a disparaging term). I think we mostly agree on the differing content, and in disagreeing with the parent, but it's the general "lumping in" with the same terminology that is often protested by the underground folks over here. Personally, I would hate for my tracks to be called EDM (I'd rather stab myself repeatedly in the eye with a spoon). Disclaimer: I'm just one UK dude who has spent a lot of time around electronic music. Other UK residents may have other opinions or nomenclature that they prefer to use.
  - ehnto 5y ago
antihero 5y ago
You know, techno parties (and illegal raves) like the ones you talk about are still happening, especially here in Europe. EDM is pure garbage and rife with narcissism.
- WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
  I think of EDM as a dance tool (not a criticism). It's practical, a tight design to serve a specific purpose. FTR I've adored techno my entire life - from back when synth, industrial and underground were more common labels. eg: Eno, Cluster, Tim Blake, Sensation's Fix, Klaus Schulz, anything produced by Conny Plank
- sideshowb 5y ago
  you must be using a different definition of edm to me. according to the definition I accept, then our rave scene is a small corner of edm which literally is an umbrella term for all electronic dance music. ...i'd be interested to know what term you use for the latter?
  - glitcher 5y ago
    Not the commenter you posed the question to, but I suspect their dislike for the term EDM is similar to how I felt about the term "electronica" back in the 90's when mainstream artists were appropriating sounds and ideas from electronic artists. When the music was mostly underground or found at illegal parties it felt original and pure, but once the broader music industry took notice and started pillaging it for profit it felt dirty and sacrilegious. My preferred umbrella term for electronic dance music is simply "electronic music". This helps make room under the umbrella for all manner of experimental and sometimes undanceable music as well. Death to the over-(sub)-genre-fication of electronic music!
    - sideshowb 5y ago
      I see where you're coming from, but though we might dislike the commercialisation, the fact you can complain that something got commercialised shows it's a continuation of the same genre. Electronica was always a rubbish pretentious ill defined term but at least edm (as I use it) is a good name from the perspective of being exactly what it says on the tin. Thanks for the perspective though!
SyzygistSix 5y ago
>But for some of those years in the 1990s it really felt like we were living in the future. It certainly felt like it. But people were quickly put back in their place.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
lamontcg 5y ago
Yeah before PLUR and candyravers in the early 90s it was just warehouse parties and you'd see all kinds of people there. Gay/straight/black/white/young/old. I can still remember some black guy in a suit out dancing in the middle of the floor.

crucialfelix 5y ago

I was in the 90s Midwest rave scene as well. This pattern repeats itself in music over and over. Jungle to DNB. Dubstep was like two tone, then it got destroyed by the US market takeover. Garage, grime, dancehall, hip hop all stay mainly black (with some white artists accepted) to defend their scene. Precisely to stop the take over from happening again.

hntroll999 5y ago
This leftist style of racist crap is normal and accepted on HN now, isn't it?
- stuaxo 5y ago
  This is just name calling and doesn't address any of the points, which are all valid - for anyone who pays attention to music.
  - hntroll999 5y ago
    It's not just name-calling, it's accurately naming somebody's fallacy. The actual process that goes on with music and all other phenomena is that they change and eventually "die" in that nobody cares about them anymore. It happens with everything, and there is no villain.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    Don't feed the troll, just downvote and move on.
    - hntroll999 5y ago
      HN has really become despicable. If people had integrity or guts, they'd take my comment apart and show everyone how wrong it was. But they can't do that, so they just hide what I said. Don't you feel ashamed? Why are people so afraid to put the strength of their ideas to the test? I really pity people who would put their hand over the mouth of someone calling out fashionable racism for what it is.
    - dang 5y ago
      Better yet, flag, as described here: "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag If no one takes the flamebait, there won't be any flamewar.
yoz-y 5y ago
With streaming, what does make a genre more or less appreciated by a group of people? TBH for most of the artists I listen to, I have no idea who they are, how they look like or even how many of them are in the band.
- ehnto 5y ago
  I think the musical styles and their in the flesh club/rave scenes are getting conflated a bit. Music is often born in a specific location and scene and then grows into it's own monster. Especially now with the internet, music is for everyone. But locally speaking there are different groups listening and producing styles of music you may not even know about yet, that will enter the global lexicon of music and get much the same treatment of commercialization as house and others got.
ehnto 5y ago
I thought the Jungle/DnB split was just the result of cocaine getting popular and the Jungle scene wanting none of that, but I wasn't there so I only have third party accounts to go off. Remembering as well that these musical styles live on and elevated above their once-upon a time rave/club scenes. So this is commentary specifically about the club scenes in the UK at their time of provenance.

failwhaleshark 5y ago

First: The parent comment is stereotyping and racist. Edit: they changed their comment to remove some racism (use of "white" and "whitewashing") but are still racist. They don't understand what EDM is: the superset of most electronic music. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_dance_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_dance_music In my opinion, the phylogeny of EDM and related genres looks like this: Funk beget disco and boogie. Funk and boogie beget electro. Disco and boogie beget house. Electro beget techno. Electro and funk beget breakbeat. House and techno beget trance. (Trance and its subgenres (like acid trance) and deep progressive house are/were what raves were made of.) Calypso beget ska. Ska beget reggae. Reggae beget dub. Dub and breakbeat beget dubstep. Dubstep != brostep. (Brostep is crapstep.) Reggae, rock, and rockabilly beget punk. Funk, disco, jazz, and punk beget hip hop. Hip hop beget trap. Dubstep and trap beget EDM trap. --- DigitallyImported had zillions of genres, subgenres, and maybe genres of EDM.

bitwize 5y ago
EDM is its own separate thing now, it basically means "radio pop with a four-on-the-floor beat and synths".
- failwhaleshark 5y ago
  No. Just no. You can redefine terms but this doesn't make it so. Edit: "Despite the industry's attempt to create a specific EDM brand, the initialism remains in use as an umbrella term for multiple genres, including dance-pop, house, techno and electro, as well as their respective subgenres." - Wikipedia. Wikipedia being right for a change, this is industry BS. Don't buy it like a willing consumer.
  - jorvi 5y ago
    What, no? At least in Europe, EDM is a specific set of big club / festival House that's all about big bombastic bass drops. If one of my Techno buddies says with disdain 'all they were playing at that place was EDM' I know exactly what he means, and it isn't techno

pupdogg 5y ago

Motor City Lounge brings back good old memories! Still a fan of AUX88 to this day.

ehnto 5y ago

Hm I don't quite agree but it could be that the scenes are different in different places. It could also be that our definitions of EDM differ. I might also be missing something so take my comment as just my perspective from where I stand. I think there is a split between commercialized EDM and "real" EDM. The true culture and heritage of house and techno definitely live on in the greater electronic music scene in general, especially online and in clubs. I call that scene EDM because it is easier than trying list all the dozens of subgenres it has grown to include, and commercialised EDM used to be referred to as Top40 during the late 2000s, as a way to differentiate it from the "real" EDM scene. Not sure if that term lives on. It is usually pretty easy to tell when a song exists in the commercial realm. House is unique in that it has had more than one era of commercial success, but I think there has always been a delineation between commercialised house (stuff on the radio and in adverts) and the culture of house music (in the clubs and mixes)

dijksterhuis 5y ago
> I think there is a split between commercialized EDM and "real" EDM. This could be a locale thing, but in the UK what you call "real" EDM is often known as the underground electronic music scene (at least in my circles). I.e. the long tail of folks pissing about with machines in their bedroom. Note the lack of "dance" as not all underground electronic music needs to be danced to. Autechre is a good example of this. In the UK at least, EDM as a whole is often viewed as a commercialisation that started over in the USA (e.g. with Skrillex) and spread. What the EDM term generally refers to has changed over the years, and is now closer to "pop trance with super saw synths EVERYWHERE" these days. So, at least for us Brits, it's a catch all term for a specific type of electronic music (and most of the time a disparaging term). I think we mostly agree on the differing content, and in disagreeing with the parent, but it's the general "lumping in" with the same terminology that is often protested by the underground folks over here. Personally, I would hate for my tracks to be called EDM (I'd rather stab myself repeatedly in the eye with a spoon). Disclaimer: I'm just one UK dude who has spent a lot of time around electronic music. Other UK residents may have other opinions or nomenclature that they prefer to use.
- ehnto 5y ago

antihero 5y ago

You know, techno parties (and illegal raves) like the ones you talk about are still happening, especially here in Europe. EDM is pure garbage and rife with narcissism.

WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
I think of EDM as a dance tool (not a criticism). It's practical, a tight design to serve a specific purpose. FTR I've adored techno my entire life - from back when synth, industrial and underground were more common labels. eg: Eno, Cluster, Tim Blake, Sensation's Fix, Klaus Schulz, anything produced by Conny Plank
sideshowb 5y ago
you must be using a different definition of edm to me. according to the definition I accept, then our rave scene is a small corner of edm which literally is an umbrella term for all electronic dance music. ...i'd be interested to know what term you use for the latter?
- glitcher 5y ago
  Not the commenter you posed the question to, but I suspect their dislike for the term EDM is similar to how I felt about the term "electronica" back in the 90's when mainstream artists were appropriating sounds and ideas from electronic artists. When the music was mostly underground or found at illegal parties it felt original and pure, but once the broader music industry took notice and started pillaging it for profit it felt dirty and sacrilegious. My preferred umbrella term for electronic dance music is simply "electronic music". This helps make room under the umbrella for all manner of experimental and sometimes undanceable music as well. Death to the over-(sub)-genre-fication of electronic music!
  - sideshowb 5y ago
    I see where you're coming from, but though we might dislike the commercialisation, the fact you can complain that something got commercialised shows it's a continuation of the same genre. Electronica was always a rubbish pretentious ill defined term but at least edm (as I use it) is a good name from the perspective of being exactly what it says on the tin. Thanks for the perspective though!

SyzygistSix 5y ago

>But for some of those years in the 1990s it really felt like we were living in the future. It certainly felt like it. But people were quickly put back in their place.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

lamontcg 5y ago

Yeah before PLUR and candyravers in the early 90s it was just warehouse parties and you'd see all kinds of people there. Gay/straight/black/white/young/old. I can still remember some black guy in a suit out dancing in the middle of the floor.