7 ms·

I grew up in a high population density area with 3 generation sharing the same apartment because that was the way to go. It is far from being a bright future on

I grew up in a high population density area with 3 generation sharing the same apartment because that was the way to go. It is far from being a bright future one would want. Constant conflicts in the family because the grandparents want to watch TV, parents need to rest after work, and the child wants to study. Constantly hearing your neighbors when they want to have a party, or do some renovation. Trashed up common spaces because some guys just don't give a damn and will throw trash, or literally pee on the staircase, and you are forced to share some area with them. I grew up with the biggest dream of escaping that hell and it was one of the main reasons I immigrated to the West, where having your own private house was still affordable for most people. Now, through unwise fiscal policies and excessive centralization, the entire generation is completely priced out of it. But instead of seeking to change these policies, push for decentralization, and be able to afford freedom and independence, they seek to blame those who was born in a luckier time and want to force everybody to live in a concrete box. I don't think it's the right way.

raldi 5y ago
It sounds like you’re mixing up density and crowding: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwBYGX7VcAIwYXL.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwBYGX7VcAIwYXL.jpg
- john_moscow 5y ago
  Density has a limit. It's easy to postpone the problem by replacing 2-storey houses with 20-storey high rises, but it won't work for long. Once enough people move in and demand catches up with the supply, you're back to square one, but with much less private space for everyone. Decentralization, on the other hand, is limited by the supply of land, that is fairly plentiful in the U.S. And it incentivizes taking care of your property, saving and paying off your mortgage (other than just giving money to the landlord). It would also create local jobs for owner-operated businesses related to construction and infrastructure maintenance, instead of corporate drones maintaining corporate-owned apartment towers.
  - raldi 5y ago
    We don’t need 20-story highrises. We could accommodate a doubling of the population without even raising height limits at all; see here and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27082266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27082266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27082421 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27082421
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Several of the issues they mention are density issues, particularly any that relate to side effects of sharing walls (noise) and common areas.
epistasis 5y ago
The overcrowding you describe is endemic in California. Likely, nearly all you food is produced by people living in overcrowded housing, worse than you describe. What you describe is common for the people who serve you food in restaurants, and restock the shelves, and do pretty much all the stuff that makes society run these days in California. And we got to that point without concrete boxes at all. Avoiding density isn't helping. Let's imagine density, but with enough living space so that each person gets their own room. Let's imagine that we build so that we don't have to hear our neighbors' partying. Let's imagine that a full time wage lets somebody rent their own 1 bedroom apartment. The only thing stopping us is an electorate that has your beliefs. We don't get crowding from building more housing, the idea is preposterous on its face. It doesn't pass a basic sniff test. We get overcrowding because we didn't build enough.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  > Let's imagine that we build so that we don't have to hear our neighbors' partying. I’ve heard (and been kept awake by) my neighbors in every single place I’ve lived that’s not a detached home. Even the fancy condo with super thick walls/floors/ceilings only made it rarer. If nothing else, this is why I want a single family home and hate the idea that this is the desirable future. Invest in remote work and let people have space.
  - sagarm 5y ago
    Single family homes in cities will still exist. They're a luxury now -- SFH in desirable parts of SF start around $1300/sq ft -- and will likely remain so.
  - randompwd 5y ago
    As has everyone. The parents comment is the residential version of champagne socialism. Somebody advocating for something they've never experienced but demand that it be the future despite most people who have experienced it saying it can be soul destroying. Grow your smaller cities and stop pumping everything in mega cities. Parents comment reminds me of the people drooling at the mouth for Tokyo style housing despite being told the truth by westerners who have lived/live there.
ryandrake 5y ago
I consider myself pretty flexible, and don't have many never-evers, but I will never, ever, ever again live in a home with any kind of shared wall or shared space. No apartments. No condos. No townhomes. No single family homes close enough that I can reach over and touch the neighbor's wall. Never. Ever. I would quit my job and move if that's what it came to. It's the one thing non-negotiable. I don't want to see my neighbors. I don't want to hear them. I don't want to smell their cooking. I don't want to have to deal with their problems that they drag home every day. I don't want to have to deal with their friends who bang on the wrong door at 2AM. I don't want to have the police always around because of whatever they are deciding to do that night. I don't want to have to park next to them so they dent every car I buy. I don't want to have to hear them complaining about whatever annoying thing I'm doing, because I'm probably an annoying neighbor just like them. Politically, I'm totally fine if that's your thing. Go wild and build concrete honeycombs (as someone else here put it) all over the city, and live in them if that's what you like. We need the housing. But it's just not for me.

raldi 5y ago

It sounds like you’re mixing up density and crowding: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwBYGX7VcAIwYXL.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwBYGX7VcAIwYXL.jpg

john_moscow 5y ago
Density has a limit. It's easy to postpone the problem by replacing 2-storey houses with 20-storey high rises, but it won't work for long. Once enough people move in and demand catches up with the supply, you're back to square one, but with much less private space for everyone. Decentralization, on the other hand, is limited by the supply of land, that is fairly plentiful in the U.S. And it incentivizes taking care of your property, saving and paying off your mortgage (other than just giving money to the landlord). It would also create local jobs for owner-operated businesses related to construction and infrastructure maintenance, instead of corporate drones maintaining corporate-owned apartment towers.
- raldi 5y ago
  We don’t need 20-story highrises. We could accommodate a doubling of the population without even raising height limits at all; see here and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27082266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27082266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27082421 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27082421
sokoloff 5y ago
Several of the issues they mention are density issues, particularly any that relate to side effects of sharing walls (noise) and common areas.

epistasis 5y ago

The overcrowding you describe is endemic in California. Likely, nearly all you food is produced by people living in overcrowded housing, worse than you describe. What you describe is common for the people who serve you food in restaurants, and restock the shelves, and do pretty much all the stuff that makes society run these days in California. And we got to that point without concrete boxes at all. Avoiding density isn't helping. Let's imagine density, but with enough living space so that each person gets their own room. Let's imagine that we build so that we don't have to hear our neighbors' partying. Let's imagine that a full time wage lets somebody rent their own 1 bedroom apartment. The only thing stopping us is an electorate that has your beliefs. We don't get crowding from building more housing, the idea is preposterous on its face. It doesn't pass a basic sniff test. We get overcrowding because we didn't build enough.

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
> Let's imagine that we build so that we don't have to hear our neighbors' partying. I’ve heard (and been kept awake by) my neighbors in every single place I’ve lived that’s not a detached home. Even the fancy condo with super thick walls/floors/ceilings only made it rarer. If nothing else, this is why I want a single family home and hate the idea that this is the desirable future. Invest in remote work and let people have space.
- sagarm 5y ago
  Single family homes in cities will still exist. They're a luxury now -- SFH in desirable parts of SF start around $1300/sq ft -- and will likely remain so.
- randompwd 5y ago
  As has everyone. The parents comment is the residential version of champagne socialism. Somebody advocating for something they've never experienced but demand that it be the future despite most people who have experienced it saying it can be soul destroying. Grow your smaller cities and stop pumping everything in mega cities. Parents comment reminds me of the people drooling at the mouth for Tokyo style housing despite being told the truth by westerners who have lived/live there.

ryandrake 5y ago

I consider myself pretty flexible, and don't have many never-evers, but I will never, ever, ever again live in a home with any kind of shared wall or shared space. No apartments. No condos. No townhomes. No single family homes close enough that I can reach over and touch the neighbor's wall. Never. Ever. I would quit my job and move if that's what it came to. It's the one thing non-negotiable. I don't want to see my neighbors. I don't want to hear them. I don't want to smell their cooking. I don't want to have to deal with their problems that they drag home every day. I don't want to have to deal with their friends who bang on the wrong door at 2AM. I don't want to have the police always around because of whatever they are deciding to do that night. I don't want to have to park next to them so they dent every car I buy. I don't want to have to hear them complaining about whatever annoying thing I'm doing, because I'm probably an annoying neighbor just like them. Politically, I'm totally fine if that's your thing. Go wild and build concrete honeycombs (as someone else here put it) all over the city, and live in them if that's what you like. We need the housing. But it's just not for me.