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The sticky part is the social network effect. Its by FAR the dominant messaging app in much/most of Europe. Some switch to Signal/others has occurred... but if

The sticky part is the social network effect. Its by FAR the dominant messaging app in much/most of Europe. Some switch to Signal/others has occurred... but if you have _one_ friend who doesn't switch that you want to continue to communicate with... you're stuck too. Not to mention, the alternatives aren't great. I'm sure others will provide a better breakdown, but at a high level: - Signal is the best alternative but missing features like crazy that really do matter to "normal" people (can't change your phone number! Stickers only can be added from the desktop app) - Telegram a) has a poor reputation in my greater social circle b) doesn't actually encrypt by default - Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate

fartcannon 5y ago
How to use Matrix: 1) Download app 2) Sign in How to use Signal: 1) Download app 2) Sign in
kjs3 5y ago
You are of course completely correct. I downplayed the network effect that drives the ability of these companies to say "screw you peon...accept whatever crap we shovel on you or your grandma's IMs get it".
- xeromal 5y ago
  And really, the network effect is the only one that really matters.
Dah00n 5y ago
I don't know what everyone use (feel free to provide a source but until then I'll treat it as an anecdote) but I live in Northern Europe (Denmark) and the only person I know that use WhatsApp regularly is my 63 year old British uncle (to keep up with his family in the UK). Everyone else use SMS, old and young (well actually more and more of the younger contacts in my phone doesn't even own a smartphone and refuse to use MMS. Hipsters I say!). I can't see a single thing WhatsApp or Facebook messenger can do for me that signal can't do better because I simply don't need SoMe on my phone. I need encrypted SMS. Anything more than that is worse than what I already got. To paraphrase someone young from my family: "Facebook is for old people". So is WhatsApp and Facebook messenger. But of course it's just an anecdote that covers 100% of the people I happen to know. So from my bubble I don't believe for a second that they have a future. Signal might. As encrypted SMS but not otherwise.
- dan-robertson 5y ago
  I live in the U.K. Basically everyone I know uses WhatsApp. My friends mostly use WhatsApp (it was to be a pretty reasonable choice even for the privacy conscious). My family use WhatsApp. My landlord uses WhatsApp. Some of my colleagues use signal but I work in tech so they aren’t very representative. I might use text to contact a stranger for some reason (say arranging pickup of something bought on eBay or Gumtree, or some other service) but they might also use WhatsApp. Some of my friends use Facebook messenger so maybe I shouldn’t care that much about WhatsApp’s privacy policy if messenger’s is so much worse.
  - axiomattik 5y ago
    Also in the UK and I've just opted to flat-out refuse to use WhatsApp. I think a lot of people want to stop using WhatsApp but are afraid to do so because of the imagined repercussions or a fear of missing out. I say to hell with that and I've found that, since there are, in fact, plenty of alternatives that work, people who need to communicate with me are able to do so perfectly well. A few non-tech oriented contacts have even installed Signal as a result of my stubbornness, including my landlord funnily enough.
- Jiocus 5y ago
  There's an app, Silence[1], which encrypts your SMS if your contact uses it as well. It does so over the actual telecom SMS network, and doesn't break non-Silence user messaging either. Been using it for years. [1]: https://silence.im/ https://silence.im/ edit: F-droid: https://f-droid.org/packages/org.smssecure.smssecure https://f-droid.org/packages/org.smssecure.smssecure Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.smssecure.smssecure https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.smssecure....
  - windthrown 5y ago
    Was Silence removed from the Google Playstore? The link on silence.im does not work for me: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.smssecure.smssecure https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.smssecure....
lolinder 5y ago
Why is SMS not used more widely in Europe? It's less ergonomic than a dedicated chat app, but in the states it's the one thing everyone is guaranteed to have.
- dTal 5y ago
  >It's less ergonomic than a dedicated chat app You answered your own question. And "everyone" does have WhatsApp.
  - lolinder 5y ago
    Nope. I don't, and I never have any issues with not having it. I communicate with my wife's family through Signal and everyone else through SMS, and my not having WhatsApp has never even drawn a comment.
    - dTal 5y ago
      Well, I'm happy for you. But the question was about Europe. "Everyone" (scare quotes) does have it in Europe. Not having it absolutely draws comment, in a similar way that not having a Facebook account drew comment some years back. And as to why nobody defaults to the lowest common denominator of SMS, WhatsApp is vastly superior to SMS: -seamless picture, video, and audio messaging - this is always super janky / broken on MMS -built-in interface to Giphy -integrated video and voice calling -group chats (especially this) These features are optimized for use by a meme-loving, highly social, audio-visually oriented userbase. Posting a reaction gif to a funny group chat thread is 1) vital culture and 2) impossible on SMS. That's why.
- edoceo 5y ago
  WA and Signal make international cheap. SMS from USA to ZAF, IRL, CHE or BRB is not cheap.
- mbirth 5y ago
  Because SMS usually still cost a thing per 160 characters, e.g. 0,09€ for PAYG offers in Germany. Sometimes even 0,19€.
nraynaud 5y ago
there is a weird UI thing too, I know people message or call me by whatsapp when they intended to use the phone or SMS. probably something like the preferred network to talk to someone or something.
foresto 5y ago
> Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate I would have agreed about a year ago, but the reference implementations have been slowly and steadily improving, as have alternative Matrix clients. If I still had contacts who struggled with Element, I might look at (for example) FluffyChat.
Siira 5y ago
I think the problem is with the whole virtue signaling thing. Telegram is so much ahead of the competition in everything except video calls and having E2E enabled by default. (Which doesn’t matter to normal users, and will make the multi-device UX much worse.) Signal’s UX is almost as bad as WhatsApp. Their only upside is that they are more privacy-conscious. Most people don’t care about that level of privacy, when they’re so many features missing, and so much free UX money left on the ground.

fartcannon 5y ago

How to use Matrix: 1) Download app 2) Sign in How to use Signal: 1) Download app 2) Sign in

kjs3 5y ago

You are of course completely correct. I downplayed the network effect that drives the ability of these companies to say "screw you peon...accept whatever crap we shovel on you or your grandma's IMs get it".

xeromal 5y ago
And really, the network effect is the only one that really matters.

Dah00n 5y ago

I don't know what everyone use (feel free to provide a source but until then I'll treat it as an anecdote) but I live in Northern Europe (Denmark) and the only person I know that use WhatsApp regularly is my 63 year old British uncle (to keep up with his family in the UK). Everyone else use SMS, old and young (well actually more and more of the younger contacts in my phone doesn't even own a smartphone and refuse to use MMS. Hipsters I say!). I can't see a single thing WhatsApp or Facebook messenger can do for me that signal can't do better because I simply don't need SoMe on my phone. I need encrypted SMS. Anything more than that is worse than what I already got. To paraphrase someone young from my family: "Facebook is for old people". So is WhatsApp and Facebook messenger. But of course it's just an anecdote that covers 100% of the people I happen to know. So from my bubble I don't believe for a second that they have a future. Signal might. As encrypted SMS but not otherwise.

dan-robertson 5y ago
I live in the U.K. Basically everyone I know uses WhatsApp. My friends mostly use WhatsApp (it was to be a pretty reasonable choice even for the privacy conscious). My family use WhatsApp. My landlord uses WhatsApp. Some of my colleagues use signal but I work in tech so they aren’t very representative. I might use text to contact a stranger for some reason (say arranging pickup of something bought on eBay or Gumtree, or some other service) but they might also use WhatsApp. Some of my friends use Facebook messenger so maybe I shouldn’t care that much about WhatsApp’s privacy policy if messenger’s is so much worse.
- axiomattik 5y ago
  Also in the UK and I've just opted to flat-out refuse to use WhatsApp. I think a lot of people want to stop using WhatsApp but are afraid to do so because of the imagined repercussions or a fear of missing out. I say to hell with that and I've found that, since there are, in fact, plenty of alternatives that work, people who need to communicate with me are able to do so perfectly well. A few non-tech oriented contacts have even installed Signal as a result of my stubbornness, including my landlord funnily enough.
Jiocus 5y ago
There's an app, Silence[1], which encrypts your SMS if your contact uses it as well. It does so over the actual telecom SMS network, and doesn't break non-Silence user messaging either. Been using it for years. [1]: https://silence.im/ https://silence.im/ edit: F-droid: https://f-droid.org/packages/org.smssecure.smssecure https://f-droid.org/packages/org.smssecure.smssecure Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.smssecure.smssecure https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.smssecure....
- windthrown 5y ago
  Was Silence removed from the Google Playstore? The link on silence.im does not work for me: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.smssecure.smssecure https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.smssecure....

lolinder 5y ago

Why is SMS not used more widely in Europe? It's less ergonomic than a dedicated chat app, but in the states it's the one thing everyone is guaranteed to have.

dTal 5y ago
>It's less ergonomic than a dedicated chat app You answered your own question. And "everyone" does have WhatsApp.
- lolinder 5y ago
  Nope. I don't, and I never have any issues with not having it. I communicate with my wife's family through Signal and everyone else through SMS, and my not having WhatsApp has never even drawn a comment.
  - dTal 5y ago
    Well, I'm happy for you. But the question was about Europe. "Everyone" (scare quotes) does have it in Europe. Not having it absolutely draws comment, in a similar way that not having a Facebook account drew comment some years back. And as to why nobody defaults to the lowest common denominator of SMS, WhatsApp is vastly superior to SMS: -seamless picture, video, and audio messaging - this is always super janky / broken on MMS -built-in interface to Giphy -integrated video and voice calling -group chats (especially this) These features are optimized for use by a meme-loving, highly social, audio-visually oriented userbase. Posting a reaction gif to a funny group chat thread is 1) vital culture and 2) impossible on SMS. That's why.
edoceo 5y ago
WA and Signal make international cheap. SMS from USA to ZAF, IRL, CHE or BRB is not cheap.
mbirth 5y ago
Because SMS usually still cost a thing per 160 characters, e.g. 0,09€ for PAYG offers in Germany. Sometimes even 0,19€.

nraynaud 5y ago

there is a weird UI thing too, I know people message or call me by whatsapp when they intended to use the phone or SMS. probably something like the preferred network to talk to someone or something.

foresto 5y ago

> Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate I would have agreed about a year ago, but the reference implementations have been slowly and steadily improving, as have alternative Matrix clients. If I still had contacts who struggled with Element, I might look at (for example) FluffyChat.

Siira 5y ago

I think the problem is with the whole virtue signaling thing. Telegram is so much ahead of the competition in everything except video calls and having E2E enabled by default. (Which doesn’t matter to normal users, and will make the multi-device UX much worse.) Signal’s UX is almost as bad as WhatsApp. Their only upside is that they are more privacy-conscious. Most people don’t care about that level of privacy, when they’re so many features missing, and so much free UX money left on the ground.