6 ms·

Your messaging app wants to screw you over? If only there was an alternative. Or dozens. Seriously, is there something so sticky about WhatsApp (other than b

by kjs3 6y ago

Your messaging app wants to screw you over? If only there was an alternative. Or dozens. Seriously, is there something so sticky about WhatsApp (other than being a new vector for Facebook to invade your life) that almost any alternative isn't preferable? We block it outright.

biggerfisch 6y ago
The sticky part is the social network effect. Its by FAR the dominant messaging app in much/most of Europe. Some switch to Signal/others has occurred... but if you have _one_ friend who doesn't switch that you want to continue to communicate with... you're stuck too. Not to mention, the alternatives aren't great. I'm sure others will provide a better breakdown, but at a high level: - Signal is the best alternative but missing features like crazy that really do matter to "normal" people (can't change your phone number! Stickers only can be added from the desktop app) - Telegram a) has a poor reputation in my greater social circle b) doesn't actually encrypt by default - Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate
- fartcannon 6y ago
  How to use Matrix: 1) Download app 2) Sign in How to use Signal: 1) Download app 2) Sign in
- kjs3 6y ago
  You are of course completely correct. I downplayed the network effect that drives the ability of these companies to say "screw you peon...accept whatever crap we shovel on you or your grandma's IMs get it".
  - xeromal 6y ago
    And really, the network effect is the only one that really matters.
- Dah00n 6y ago
  I don't know what everyone use (feel free to provide a source but until then I'll treat it as an anecdote) but I live in Northern Europe (Denmark) and the only person I know that use WhatsApp regularly is my 63 year old British uncle (to keep up with his family in the UK). Everyone else use SMS, old and young (well actually more and more of the younger contacts in my phone doesn't even own a smartphone and refuse to use MMS. Hipsters I say!). I can't see a single thing WhatsApp or Facebook messenger can do for me that signal can't do better because I simply don't need SoMe on my phone. I need encrypted SMS. Anything more than that is worse than what I already got. To paraphrase someone young from my family: "Facebook is for old people". So is WhatsApp and Facebook messenger. But of course it's just an anecdote that covers 100% of the people I happen to know. So from my bubble I don't believe for a second that they have a future. Signal might. As encrypted SMS but not otherwise.
  - dan-robertson 6y ago
    I live in the U.K. Basically everyone I know uses WhatsApp. My friends mostly use WhatsApp (it was to be a pretty reasonable choice even for the privacy conscious). My family use WhatsApp. My landlord uses WhatsApp. Some of my colleagues use signal but I work in tech so they aren’t very representative. I might use text to contact a stranger for some reason (say arranging pickup of something bought on eBay or Gumtree, or some other service) but they might also use WhatsApp. Some of my friends use Facebook messenger so maybe I shouldn’t care that much about WhatsApp’s privacy policy if messenger’s is so much worse.
    - axiomattik 6y ago
      Also in the UK and I've just opted to flat-out refuse to use WhatsApp. I think a lot of people want to stop using WhatsApp but are afraid to do so because of the imagined repercussions or a fear of missing out. I say to hell with that and I've found that, since there are, in fact, plenty of alternatives that work, people who need to communicate with me are able to do so perfectly well. A few non-tech oriented contacts have even installed Signal as a result of my stubbornness, including my landlord funnily enough.
  - Jiocus 6y ago
- lolinder 6y ago
  Why is SMS not used more widely in Europe? It's less ergonomic than a dedicated chat app, but in the states it's the one thing everyone is guaranteed to have.
  - dTal 6y ago
    >It's less ergonomic than a dedicated chat app You answered your own question. And "everyone" does have WhatsApp.
    - lolinder 6y ago
      Nope. I don't, and I never have any issues with not having it. I communicate with my wife's family through Signal and everyone else through SMS, and my not having WhatsApp has never even drawn a comment.
      - dTal 6y ago
        Well, I'm happy for you. But the question was about Europe. "Everyone" (scare quotes) does have it in Europe. Not having it absolutely draws comment, in a similar way that not having a Facebook account drew comment some years back. And as to why nobody defaults to the lowest common denominator of SMS, WhatsApp is vastly superior to SMS: -seamless picture, video, and audio messaging - this is always super janky / broken on MMS -built-in interface to Giphy -integrated video and voice calling -group chats (especially this) These features are optimized for use by a meme-loving, highly social, audio-visually oriented userbase. Posting a reaction gif to a funny group chat thread is 1) vital culture and 2) impossible on SMS. That's why.
  - edoceo 6y ago
    WA and Signal make international cheap. SMS from USA to ZAF, IRL, CHE or BRB is not cheap.
  - mbirth 6y ago
    Because SMS usually still cost a thing per 160 characters, e.g. 0,09€ for PAYG offers in Germany. Sometimes even 0,19€.
- nraynaud 6y ago
  there is a weird UI thing too, I know people message or call me by whatsapp when they intended to use the phone or SMS. probably something like the preferred network to talk to someone or something.
- foresto 6y ago
  > Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate I would have agreed about a year ago, but the reference implementations have been slowly and steadily improving, as have alternative Matrix clients. If I still had contacts who struggled with Element, I might look at (for example) FluffyChat.
- Siira 6y ago
  I think the problem is with the whole virtue signaling thing. Telegram is so much ahead of the competition in everything except video calls and having E2E enabled by default. (Which doesn’t matter to normal users, and will make the multi-device UX much worse.) Signal’s UX is almost as bad as WhatsApp. Their only upside is that they are more privacy-conscious. Most people don’t care about that level of privacy, when they’re so many features missing, and so much free UX money left on the ground.
speeder 6y ago
In my country SMS has absurd prices, when Whatsapp showed up it was viewed as a huge blessing, no more having to pay at the time around 1 USD to send 1 message... (and if you had 141 characters? well, that is 2 USD now!) Everyone here uses it now, and this include sevearl business and organizations, I heard even some government communication can only be done with Whatsapp, so basically we are stuck with it.
- discordance 6y ago
  May I know which country you live in? - that pricing for sms is absurd
  - stephenhuey 6y ago
    His LinkedIn says São Paulo, Brazil.
ufo 6y ago
Here in Brazil there are essential services such as scheduling a doctor's appointment that effectively require Whatsapp.
- arp242 6y ago
  Same in Indonesia; I sometimes joke that the entire Indonesian economy runs on WhatsApp. An exaggeration, of course, but it's pretty much ubiquitous when communicating with businesses. People use either Instagram or WhatsApp to chat.
zwaps 6y ago
All my friends are on whatsapp. Even when some switched to Signal, others simply declined ("I don't need another chat app"). It's a pandemic. I haven't seen my friends in a year. I want to have the option to talk to them. Due to health risks of my spouse, and due to vaccine delays, I will not see them until autumn. Blocking Whatsapp may very well amount to cutting off a lot of contacts for me - not that I have many. More social isolation is a high price to pay at this point. Don't get my wrong though, my soul burns with seething hatred for Whatsapp and Facebook over this. If I'd meet someone working for these companies, I might very well spit in their face. Heck, if any of you work for these companies, shame on you. You are taking advantage of the situation, of people being isolated. And you know it. But yeah - around these parts, Whatsapp is THE message app everyone uses. And it's sticky. Very much so.
TrinaryWorksToo 6y ago
Signal is growing.
philshem 6y ago
I was a heavy WhatsApp user and deleted my account in January. I’ve had full coverage of contacts with iMessage, Signal and SMS. I notified most important contacts before deleting. What sucks though is that when you delete your account, WhatsApp doesn’t hide or delete your threads on other people’s phones. That means that people continue to send messages, and don’t realize they aren’t delivered unless they come back to the thread and are tech-clever enough to realize there is only one light grey check-mark, and not two.

by kjs3 6y ago

biggerfisch 6y ago

The sticky part is the social network effect. Its by FAR the dominant messaging app in much/most of Europe. Some switch to Signal/others has occurred... but if you have _one_ friend who doesn't switch that you want to continue to communicate with... you're stuck too. Not to mention, the alternatives aren't great. I'm sure others will provide a better breakdown, but at a high level: - Signal is the best alternative but missing features like crazy that really do matter to "normal" people (can't change your phone number! Stickers only can be added from the desktop app) - Telegram a) has a poor reputation in my greater social circle b) doesn't actually encrypt by default - Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate

fartcannon 6y ago
How to use Matrix: 1) Download app 2) Sign in How to use Signal: 1) Download app 2) Sign in
kjs3 6y ago
You are of course completely correct. I downplayed the network effect that drives the ability of these companies to say "screw you peon...accept whatever crap we shovel on you or your grandma's IMs get it".
- xeromal 6y ago
  And really, the network effect is the only one that really matters.
Dah00n 6y ago
I don't know what everyone use (feel free to provide a source but until then I'll treat it as an anecdote) but I live in Northern Europe (Denmark) and the only person I know that use WhatsApp regularly is my 63 year old British uncle (to keep up with his family in the UK). Everyone else use SMS, old and young (well actually more and more of the younger contacts in my phone doesn't even own a smartphone and refuse to use MMS. Hipsters I say!). I can't see a single thing WhatsApp or Facebook messenger can do for me that signal can't do better because I simply don't need SoMe on my phone. I need encrypted SMS. Anything more than that is worse than what I already got. To paraphrase someone young from my family: "Facebook is for old people". So is WhatsApp and Facebook messenger. But of course it's just an anecdote that covers 100% of the people I happen to know. So from my bubble I don't believe for a second that they have a future. Signal might. As encrypted SMS but not otherwise.
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  I live in the U.K. Basically everyone I know uses WhatsApp. My friends mostly use WhatsApp (it was to be a pretty reasonable choice even for the privacy conscious). My family use WhatsApp. My landlord uses WhatsApp. Some of my colleagues use signal but I work in tech so they aren’t very representative. I might use text to contact a stranger for some reason (say arranging pickup of something bought on eBay or Gumtree, or some other service) but they might also use WhatsApp. Some of my friends use Facebook messenger so maybe I shouldn’t care that much about WhatsApp’s privacy policy if messenger’s is so much worse.
  - axiomattik 6y ago
    Also in the UK and I've just opted to flat-out refuse to use WhatsApp. I think a lot of people want to stop using WhatsApp but are afraid to do so because of the imagined repercussions or a fear of missing out. I say to hell with that and I've found that, since there are, in fact, plenty of alternatives that work, people who need to communicate with me are able to do so perfectly well. A few non-tech oriented contacts have even installed Signal as a result of my stubbornness, including my landlord funnily enough.
- Jiocus 6y ago
lolinder 6y ago
Why is SMS not used more widely in Europe? It's less ergonomic than a dedicated chat app, but in the states it's the one thing everyone is guaranteed to have.
- dTal 6y ago
  >It's less ergonomic than a dedicated chat app You answered your own question. And "everyone" does have WhatsApp.
  - lolinder 6y ago
    Nope. I don't, and I never have any issues with not having it. I communicate with my wife's family through Signal and everyone else through SMS, and my not having WhatsApp has never even drawn a comment.
    - dTal 6y ago
      Well, I'm happy for you. But the question was about Europe. "Everyone" (scare quotes) does have it in Europe. Not having it absolutely draws comment, in a similar way that not having a Facebook account drew comment some years back. And as to why nobody defaults to the lowest common denominator of SMS, WhatsApp is vastly superior to SMS: -seamless picture, video, and audio messaging - this is always super janky / broken on MMS -built-in interface to Giphy -integrated video and voice calling -group chats (especially this) These features are optimized for use by a meme-loving, highly social, audio-visually oriented userbase. Posting a reaction gif to a funny group chat thread is 1) vital culture and 2) impossible on SMS. That's why.
- edoceo 6y ago
  WA and Signal make international cheap. SMS from USA to ZAF, IRL, CHE or BRB is not cheap.
- mbirth 6y ago
  Because SMS usually still cost a thing per 160 characters, e.g. 0,09€ for PAYG offers in Germany. Sometimes even 0,19€.
nraynaud 6y ago
there is a weird UI thing too, I know people message or call me by whatsapp when they intended to use the phone or SMS. probably something like the preferred network to talk to someone or something.
foresto 6y ago
> Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate I would have agreed about a year ago, but the reference implementations have been slowly and steadily improving, as have alternative Matrix clients. If I still had contacts who struggled with Element, I might look at (for example) FluffyChat.
Siira 6y ago
I think the problem is with the whole virtue signaling thing. Telegram is so much ahead of the competition in everything except video calls and having E2E enabled by default. (Which doesn’t matter to normal users, and will make the multi-device UX much worse.) Signal’s UX is almost as bad as WhatsApp. Their only upside is that they are more privacy-conscious. Most people don’t care about that level of privacy, when they’re so many features missing, and so much free UX money left on the ground.

speeder 6y ago

In my country SMS has absurd prices, when Whatsapp showed up it was viewed as a huge blessing, no more having to pay at the time around 1 USD to send 1 message... (and if you had 141 characters? well, that is 2 USD now!) Everyone here uses it now, and this include sevearl business and organizations, I heard even some government communication can only be done with Whatsapp, so basically we are stuck with it.

discordance 6y ago
May I know which country you live in? - that pricing for sms is absurd
- stephenhuey 6y ago
  His LinkedIn says São Paulo, Brazil.

ufo 6y ago

Here in Brazil there are essential services such as scheduling a doctor's appointment that effectively require Whatsapp.

arp242 6y ago
Same in Indonesia; I sometimes joke that the entire Indonesian economy runs on WhatsApp. An exaggeration, of course, but it's pretty much ubiquitous when communicating with businesses. People use either Instagram or WhatsApp to chat.

zwaps 6y ago

All my friends are on whatsapp. Even when some switched to Signal, others simply declined ("I don't need another chat app"). It's a pandemic. I haven't seen my friends in a year. I want to have the option to talk to them. Due to health risks of my spouse, and due to vaccine delays, I will not see them until autumn. Blocking Whatsapp may very well amount to cutting off a lot of contacts for me - not that I have many. More social isolation is a high price to pay at this point. Don't get my wrong though, my soul burns with seething hatred for Whatsapp and Facebook over this. If I'd meet someone working for these companies, I might very well spit in their face. Heck, if any of you work for these companies, shame on you. You are taking advantage of the situation, of people being isolated. And you know it. But yeah - around these parts, Whatsapp is THE message app everyone uses. And it's sticky. Very much so.

TrinaryWorksToo 6y ago

Signal is growing.

philshem 6y ago

I was a heavy WhatsApp user and deleted my account in January. I’ve had full coverage of contacts with iMessage, Signal and SMS. I notified most important contacts before deleting. What sucks though is that when you delete your account, WhatsApp doesn’t hide or delete your threads on other people’s phones. That means that people continue to send messages, and don’t realize they aren’t delivered unless they come back to the thread and are tech-clever enough to realize there is only one light grey check-mark, and not two.