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‘Belonging Is Stronger Than Facts’: The Age of Misinformation

32 points by throwkeep 5y ago

ergot_vacation 5y ago
The problem is not misinformation. The problem is that people no longer trust "experts," "authority," "scientists" etc as much as they used to, because that trust was betrayed. When you lie to people repeatedly about something important, they stop trusting you. That's why we have that story about the boy and wolves. Stop blaming the public for believing "misinformation" and "conspiracy theories." In the past few years, many of those "conspiracy theories" have turned out to be more truthful than what you were telling them. They're just being rational actors. If you (the media establishment) want your relevancy back, you're not going to get it by insulting your former audience at higher and higher volume. If you want people to start listening to you again, you're going to have to stop lying for money (or at least drastically cut down on it). Barring that, you will continue to fade into obsolescence, replaced with a field of new info sources.
- uniqueid 5y ago
  That sounds like a load of received ideas from Alex Jones and other internet dingbats. The problem is misinformation. Each passing year since the dawn of social media has made it clearer and clearer that 'the public' has the intelligence of a fucking shoehorn.
  - darkhorse13 5y ago
    Yes, the average person isn't very smart, but you simply can't deny that their trusts were broken by "experts" over and over again. Bringing in Alex Jones of all people into this is genuinely missing the point. It also comes off as a cheap way to discredit the parent comment, very similar to how these "experts" often do.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    Bringing someone like Alex Jones into a thread like that is exactly what is killing any intelligent discussion a out the subject? Why? Imagine if every topic about lab grown near would be filled that *that's what Hitler wanted" - it is boring and tiring.
    - uniqueid 5y ago
      Then I suppose I've inadvertently bolstered my argument: you shouldn't look to the internet for 'intelligent discussion'
  - throwkeep 5y ago
    He's a distraction and drop in the ocean compared to the volume of misinformation, fear mongering and propaganda coming from the news business every day.
  - jl2718 5y ago
    Meta: I’m tempted to flag any broad characterization of the human population as stupid. This is mostly because such a statement clearly violates the central limit theorem. However, such a statement might be very accurate in specific cases of things that all humans are truly bad at, or the notion that crowds tend to adopt patterns of behavior that might reflect lower intelligence than a sample of individuals from the crowd. I think it particularly feels inappropriate if a comment is perceived to suggest that the negative characterization of ‘the public’ does not apply to the commenter, and no support is suggested as to why they would be exceptional.
    - uniqueid 5y ago
      That's fair criticism, but it takes my comment more literally than I intended. I'm tempted to defend my use of hyperbole by rattling off a list of spectacularly dumb ideas social media have made popular. I'll resist the temptation because you can all predict which examples I'd use; people have talked them to death.
    - clairity 5y ago
      > " I’m tempted to flag any broad characterization of the human population as stupid." don't just be tempted, just do it. that heuristic will be correct approximately 99% of the time. those kinds of comments tend to be cheap and shallow, wasting our time and attention, rather than being interesting and considered. when humans seem broadly stupid, it behooves the commenter to at least attempt to understand and explain the underlying motivational landscape before making sweeping generalizations, a process that should impel the comment toward the interesting and considered.
      - uniqueid 5y ago
        don't just be tempted, just do it Rightly or wrongly, it's rather awkward to respond to a comment exhorting people to flag me. I'll bow out here :)
        clairity 5y ago
        > "That sounds like a load of received ideas from Alex Jones and other internet dingbats. The problem is misinformation. Each passing year since the dawn of social media has made it clearer and clearer that 'the public' has the intelligence of a fucking shoehorn." to be clear, there's no rationale in your prior comment, only sweeping, derogatory value judgment and unsupported assertion. it's asking the reader to brainlessly agree with an identitarian position (ironic, given the subject of the article). i'd suggest humanizing your targets before rushing to judgment, to develop perspective and depth. otherwise, it'd be better to simply not press that 'reply' button after fulminating.
- haram_masala 5y ago
  This could use some specific examples to illustrate the phenomenon. I can think of a few from recent memory: - The way Obamacare was sold to the public, which was highly deceptive. See ACA architect Jonathan Gruber’s comments about how it passed because of the voters’ “stupidity.” - The CDC telling us not to wear masks because they wouldn’t help, and then telling us to wear them; and finding out that the first recommendation was an intentional lie. - Pretty much everything the media reports about race.
  - shephardjhon 5y ago
    -Public healthcare is something every industerialized country has. Including the white ones your racist leader wants immigrants from. -at the time masks were in VERY short supply and needed for medical experts AND people were stealing them from hospitals and it wasnt known that cloth masks would be as good as N95s.Even now the actual N95 supply isnt that good, normal public can only get up to KN95 for the most part not the official N95. - this is why i will ignore anything else you have to say. You just want to be put into a comforting blanket and told that there is nothing bad you or your anscestors did or that you didnt benefit from today. Sorry but Ghengis Kahn and Timujin and Ottomans happened in the 13th century to the 18th, the last Ottoman atrocity was the Armenian genocide. Meanwhile, colonialism ended less than 100 years ago. There are people currently alive who were born in French Algeria or British India. People older than MLK and Malcolm X are still alive(eg Betty White). School segeration was a thing even in Kamala Harris's time. The historical attrocities other groups did dont have nearly as much bearing on the world today but you want a blanket and cookies and you want to get told "there there you are a good white boy and only your group is good and everyone else is evil" while the rest of us do the hard work of growing as people.
    - haram_masala 5y ago
      Genghis Khan was Temujin. They weren’t separate people, as you suggest. You make a lot of incorrect assumptions, too many to list, really. Honestly you seem a bit deranged.
  - antris 5y ago
    >The way Obamacare was sold to the public, which was highly deceptive. See ACA architect Jonathan Gruber’s comments about how it passed because of the voters’ “stupidity.” Parent comment was talking about media, not politicians. So, not really related. Unless you think media shouldn't cover what the POTUS and their team says about the bills they're proposing? > The CDC telling us not to wear masks because they wouldn’t help Source? At the start of the pandemic many health officials said that there is no evidence that masks help (which was true), but the fact that there is no evidence is different than saying that they definitely don't help. Meanwhile emphasis was put on hand washing, social distancing which had plenty of evidence. Of course it makes sense to promote those practices over something that isn't yet proven. Now that we have data on the pandemic, we have evidence, so that was presented. But please, if you have a link to a source where CDC says masks don't work, please provide. >Pretty much everything the media reports about race. Just "about race"? I assume you are talking about racism, race relations or something, because it's not like there's some constant outpouring of news about new races being discovered or something...? If you don't specify any further, it's easy to assume that you're just another person who's upset that people of color have at least some voice in the media nowadays
- steego 5y ago
  The problem is misinformation, but it's always been misinformation. It's also a lack of trust in experts, because the rich and powerful have always employed some experts to represent their positions or skew the truth. There's nothing new about misinformation. What is new is how much it's being monetized today by networks of like-minded scum. For example, if I wanted to sell dubious health products, it would probably be a good idea to set up Facebook groups that deals in nonsense memes so I can find my target audience. The truth is, more of these "new info sources" are garbage than not because garbage is incentivized. There's always been a sizable percentage of the population that simple doesn't know how to discriminate or question their sources critically. They were just as vulnerable to misinformation 30 and 40 years ago, but it was not as abundant as it is today. Some flies will always find the shit.
  - shephardjhon 5y ago
    Facebook needs to implement a new "unless you show me peer reviewed papers you cant promote snake oil" rule. And implement a more strict "show me FDA approval" for anything claiming to be a cure on facebook.
    - tshanmu 5y ago
      If you have enough money, you can get peer reviewed expert opinion to support your version of facts...
- devwastaken 5y ago
  The title is on point. I know a Q'er, they lack basic abilities for reasoning, evidence and instead of doing any sort of hard research they simply trust what their authority says. Which is quite literally a guy on YouTube whom fabricates information. And group chats filled with conspirators and scammers looking to take advantage of them (buying gold/silver at its highest price). We now have cults of information where people intentionally go against the truth because they believe otherwise. If they don't want something to be true they simply say it isn't and turn around pushing their conspiracy. They know they're doing it, but belief is stronger than fact. These individuals are a result of the western worlds terrible education, devout religion, 24/7 news networks being allowed to lie, and lack of action against forums like 8ch.
  - jl2718 5y ago
    I know this one guy that disagrees with me, and I think he is very stupid. This is proof that everybody that disagrees with me is also very stupid and wrong. The problem is that the opinions that disagree with me are allowed to exist. Understand the word ‘solipsism’.
    - devwastaken 5y ago
      Don't Strawman and generalize - provide an argument relative to this context, if not then the merit of your argument stops by simply changing the content. For example if we were to insert Hitler now your generalized argument looks ridiculous because of course the problem is that people agreed with Hitler. When a person's opinion is based on literal fabrication of information, based on soley on belief, and is irreconcilable with the truth, yes, the problem is absolutely with them and parties involved.
    - shephardjhon 5y ago
      Its not just one or a few people that one guy disagrees. Sorry but the openion of a guy with no experience or professional degree in a field is not the same as people with 20+ years of experience and a phd. And the openion of a piedratician is not applicable to an epidimic as someone with years of experience in that field. Least of all, the openion of a politician is completely irrelevant to anything where they cannt back up their claims with expert sources.
- 0x000000E2 5y ago
  Media is just as dishonest as they've been for decades or longer. The problem is not traditional media, and it's two fold. In the US at least, there's a dramatic rise in "captive media", essentially party propaganda packaged as news. I won't name names, but the number one sign is when you see a rotating cast of elites from one party showing up all the time for "interviews" and "exclusives". These media channels are funded and staffed by the same people running said political party. They're essentially one in the same. Plenty of people are fine living inside their party bubble despite more diverse opinions than ever being freely available on the internet. They are convinced that this news source is just as good as any other, and probably even better because they're always saying things that match their opinions. The same thing happens on social media, ML sorts people into their bubbles and hardly anyone leaves. This leads to the second problem (in the US at least). There's a large contingent of the population that feels like they've been left behind. Their culture is dying out, even being replaced. They look at the other side and those people look different, have different religions, different jobs, live in different places, have different cultural beliefs. It's easy to convince these frightened and angry people that the other side is so different they're not even Americans. And party propaganda latches onto all these differences and rips them as wide as possible, which is part of the reason the two sides became so different in the first place. It's easy to sell fear to these people and get them to the polls very effectively. Once you've convinced these people the other side isn't Americans, you can sell them as traitors, enemies, fascists, really whatever you want to placate the scared and left behind masses. Dishonesty of the media only matters if you listen to lying party propaganda outlets. Usually you can tell which outlets are truthful by looking for ones that aren't constantly stoking fear and demonizing people or obviously pandering to one party. Outrage sells to simpletons and manufacturing it is more profitable than finding it in the wild. America is undergoing the same cycle as many western countries. There was a huge population boom post WWII and this group is aging. Their children are a similarly large generation and you're watching an epic cultural power struggle between the old generation that's generally been in power for 40+ years and the first younger generation large enough to outvote them. That's a general simplification but a majority or party positions and voters are sorted along this axis
  - shephardjhon 5y ago
    I woulden't say media is still as honest as they always were when it comes to right wing media. Fox News recently had to do multiple retractions but only did so in a miniscule way. The damage the oroginal reports like "Biden will ban beef" were supposed to do already happened, they covered it for hours or days on multiple shows then print a minimal retraction with Larry Kodlow or Tucker Carlson or others not even attempting to apologize. Thats not even mentioning their coverage of the Dr Seuess thing not mentioning the actual book in question and to avoid a retraction, they dont explicitly say Biden banned the books but keep making it appear as of that was the case. A Newsmax host literally had to walk off his show during thr My Pillow guy's rants after being sued by Smartmatic and yet they only had a minimal retraction compared to the lies they got sued for. Tucker Carlson literally had to claim in court that no sane person would take him seriously. Sorry but right wing news has gone completely off the rails from what they used to be. I am fine with them wanting to cover topics from a right wing slant but when they are caught in a lie constantly and barely apologize enough to avoid getting in legal trouble, there is a serious problem.
- shephardjhon 5y ago
  Throughout your entire 3 paragraph rant you didnt mention one concrete well known example of deliberate misniformation spread by experts. And by deliberate I dont mean something where another point was argued previously with less proof/technology but was changed with more proof. That is not deliberate misinformation.
- antris 5y ago
  When you've got people in high places of the government who talk about jewish space lasers, turning around and talking about problems with "the media establishment" in general - as if that's the problem is just disingenuous. Not only this top comment (???) on the thread hasn't even defined who or what this "media establishment" is, it doesn't say what they have done. It's easy to hate something so vaguely defined that everyone can project that one experience when they remember some media fumbling a story that one time. Yes, journalists have always made mistakes and always will. There just hasn't been a 24/7 outrage machine, professional "alt-news" grifter industry and conspiracy pipelines on such a scale before that highlights "that one thing" they got wrong and squeezing all the juices out of it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... People like Steve Crowder know that outrage creates clicks, clicks create money. And if they make a mistake in their "DIY journalism", they already have made 30 videos about the next thing to be outraged about so people have long forgotten.
djoldman 5y ago
> Social and psychological forces are combining to make the sharing and believing of misinformation an endemic problem with no easy solution. There's nothing new about misinformation in the US. We have a long history of trying to influence each other for monetary, political, or other purposes. (See 19th century newspapers completely ignoring news not favorable to their chosen parties and candidates). Maybe it happens faster now with social media. But the effect has been with us before and will be again.
Koshkin 5y ago
“Truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it.“ “No real gentleman will tell the naked truth in the presence of ladies.” - Mark Twain
fallingfrog 5y ago
I think this should be a fundamental assumption, whether you’re left wing or right wing: the enemy is an ordinary person, just like you. You can’t change human nature, all you can address is the various carrots and sticks that influence their behavior. I am a leftist and I definitely do not believe that our social problems are the result of scheming enemies or secret cabals. In my view they are the natural, systemic result of an economic and social system where the more power and money you have, the more I you can get. It forces you to make the most narrow, self interested decisions you can, because otherwise someone else will beat you. And the best way to win that game is make sure someone else pays for all your externalities. If your worldview relies on secret cabals or inherently bad people doing evil things because they’re just evil, that’s a big hint that you’re on the wrong track.

32 points by throwkeep 5y ago

The problem is not misinformation. The problem is that people no longer trust "experts," "authority," "scientists" etc as much as they used to, because that trust was betrayed. When you lie to people repeatedly about something important, they stop trusting you. That's why we have that story about the boy and wolves. Stop blaming the public for believing "misinformation" and "conspiracy theories." In the past few years, many of those "conspiracy theories" have turned out to be more truthful than what you were telling them. They're just being rational actors. If you (the media establishment) want your relevancy back, you're not going to get it by insulting your former audience at higher and higher volume. If you want people to start listening to you again, you're going to have to stop lying for money (or at least drastically cut down on it). Barring that, you will continue to fade into obsolescence, replaced with a field of new info sources.

uniqueid 5y ago
That sounds like a load of received ideas from Alex Jones and other internet dingbats. The problem is misinformation. Each passing year since the dawn of social media has made it clearer and clearer that 'the public' has the intelligence of a fucking shoehorn.
- darkhorse13 5y ago
  Yes, the average person isn't very smart, but you simply can't deny that their trusts were broken by "experts" over and over again. Bringing in Alex Jones of all people into this is genuinely missing the point. It also comes off as a cheap way to discredit the parent comment, very similar to how these "experts" often do.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  Bringing someone like Alex Jones into a thread like that is exactly what is killing any intelligent discussion a out the subject? Why? Imagine if every topic about lab grown near would be filled that *that's what Hitler wanted" - it is boring and tiring.
  - uniqueid 5y ago
    Then I suppose I've inadvertently bolstered my argument: you shouldn't look to the internet for 'intelligent discussion'
- throwkeep 5y ago
  He's a distraction and drop in the ocean compared to the volume of misinformation, fear mongering and propaganda coming from the news business every day.
- jl2718 5y ago
  Meta: I’m tempted to flag any broad characterization of the human population as stupid. This is mostly because such a statement clearly violates the central limit theorem. However, such a statement might be very accurate in specific cases of things that all humans are truly bad at, or the notion that crowds tend to adopt patterns of behavior that might reflect lower intelligence than a sample of individuals from the crowd. I think it particularly feels inappropriate if a comment is perceived to suggest that the negative characterization of ‘the public’ does not apply to the commenter, and no support is suggested as to why they would be exceptional.
  - uniqueid 5y ago
    That's fair criticism, but it takes my comment more literally than I intended. I'm tempted to defend my use of hyperbole by rattling off a list of spectacularly dumb ideas social media have made popular. I'll resist the temptation because you can all predict which examples I'd use; people have talked them to death.
  - clairity 5y ago
    > " I’m tempted to flag any broad characterization of the human population as stupid." don't just be tempted, just do it. that heuristic will be correct approximately 99% of the time. those kinds of comments tend to be cheap and shallow, wasting our time and attention, rather than being interesting and considered. when humans seem broadly stupid, it behooves the commenter to at least attempt to understand and explain the underlying motivational landscape before making sweeping generalizations, a process that should impel the comment toward the interesting and considered.
    - uniqueid 5y ago
      don't just be tempted, just do it Rightly or wrongly, it's rather awkward to respond to a comment exhorting people to flag me. I'll bow out here :)
      - clairity 5y ago
        > "That sounds like a load of received ideas from Alex Jones and other internet dingbats. The problem is misinformation. Each passing year since the dawn of social media has made it clearer and clearer that 'the public' has the intelligence of a fucking shoehorn." to be clear, there's no rationale in your prior comment, only sweeping, derogatory value judgment and unsupported assertion. it's asking the reader to brainlessly agree with an identitarian position (ironic, given the subject of the article). i'd suggest humanizing your targets before rushing to judgment, to develop perspective and depth. otherwise, it'd be better to simply not press that 'reply' button after fulminating.
haram_masala 5y ago
This could use some specific examples to illustrate the phenomenon. I can think of a few from recent memory: - The way Obamacare was sold to the public, which was highly deceptive. See ACA architect Jonathan Gruber’s comments about how it passed because of the voters’ “stupidity.” - The CDC telling us not to wear masks because they wouldn’t help, and then telling us to wear them; and finding out that the first recommendation was an intentional lie. - Pretty much everything the media reports about race.
- shephardjhon 5y ago
  -Public healthcare is something every industerialized country has. Including the white ones your racist leader wants immigrants from. -at the time masks were in VERY short supply and needed for medical experts AND people were stealing them from hospitals and it wasnt known that cloth masks would be as good as N95s.Even now the actual N95 supply isnt that good, normal public can only get up to KN95 for the most part not the official N95. - this is why i will ignore anything else you have to say. You just want to be put into a comforting blanket and told that there is nothing bad you or your anscestors did or that you didnt benefit from today. Sorry but Ghengis Kahn and Timujin and Ottomans happened in the 13th century to the 18th, the last Ottoman atrocity was the Armenian genocide. Meanwhile, colonialism ended less than 100 years ago. There are people currently alive who were born in French Algeria or British India. People older than MLK and Malcolm X are still alive(eg Betty White). School segeration was a thing even in Kamala Harris's time. The historical attrocities other groups did dont have nearly as much bearing on the world today but you want a blanket and cookies and you want to get told "there there you are a good white boy and only your group is good and everyone else is evil" while the rest of us do the hard work of growing as people.
  - haram_masala 5y ago
    Genghis Khan was Temujin. They weren’t separate people, as you suggest. You make a lot of incorrect assumptions, too many to list, really. Honestly you seem a bit deranged.
- antris 5y ago
  >The way Obamacare was sold to the public, which was highly deceptive. See ACA architect Jonathan Gruber’s comments about how it passed because of the voters’ “stupidity.” Parent comment was talking about media, not politicians. So, not really related. Unless you think media shouldn't cover what the POTUS and their team says about the bills they're proposing? > The CDC telling us not to wear masks because they wouldn’t help Source? At the start of the pandemic many health officials said that there is no evidence that masks help (which was true), but the fact that there is no evidence is different than saying that they definitely don't help. Meanwhile emphasis was put on hand washing, social distancing which had plenty of evidence. Of course it makes sense to promote those practices over something that isn't yet proven. Now that we have data on the pandemic, we have evidence, so that was presented. But please, if you have a link to a source where CDC says masks don't work, please provide. >Pretty much everything the media reports about race. Just "about race"? I assume you are talking about racism, race relations or something, because it's not like there's some constant outpouring of news about new races being discovered or something...? If you don't specify any further, it's easy to assume that you're just another person who's upset that people of color have at least some voice in the media nowadays
steego 5y ago
The problem is misinformation, but it's always been misinformation. It's also a lack of trust in experts, because the rich and powerful have always employed some experts to represent their positions or skew the truth. There's nothing new about misinformation. What is new is how much it's being monetized today by networks of like-minded scum. For example, if I wanted to sell dubious health products, it would probably be a good idea to set up Facebook groups that deals in nonsense memes so I can find my target audience. The truth is, more of these "new info sources" are garbage than not because garbage is incentivized. There's always been a sizable percentage of the population that simple doesn't know how to discriminate or question their sources critically. They were just as vulnerable to misinformation 30 and 40 years ago, but it was not as abundant as it is today. Some flies will always find the shit.
- shephardjhon 5y ago
  Facebook needs to implement a new "unless you show me peer reviewed papers you cant promote snake oil" rule. And implement a more strict "show me FDA approval" for anything claiming to be a cure on facebook.
  - tshanmu 5y ago
    If you have enough money, you can get peer reviewed expert opinion to support your version of facts...
devwastaken 5y ago
The title is on point. I know a Q'er, they lack basic abilities for reasoning, evidence and instead of doing any sort of hard research they simply trust what their authority says. Which is quite literally a guy on YouTube whom fabricates information. And group chats filled with conspirators and scammers looking to take advantage of them (buying gold/silver at its highest price). We now have cults of information where people intentionally go against the truth because they believe otherwise. If they don't want something to be true they simply say it isn't and turn around pushing their conspiracy. They know they're doing it, but belief is stronger than fact. These individuals are a result of the western worlds terrible education, devout religion, 24/7 news networks being allowed to lie, and lack of action against forums like 8ch.
- jl2718 5y ago
  I know this one guy that disagrees with me, and I think he is very stupid. This is proof that everybody that disagrees with me is also very stupid and wrong. The problem is that the opinions that disagree with me are allowed to exist. Understand the word ‘solipsism’.
  - devwastaken 5y ago
    Don't Strawman and generalize - provide an argument relative to this context, if not then the merit of your argument stops by simply changing the content. For example if we were to insert Hitler now your generalized argument looks ridiculous because of course the problem is that people agreed with Hitler. When a person's opinion is based on literal fabrication of information, based on soley on belief, and is irreconcilable with the truth, yes, the problem is absolutely with them and parties involved.
  - shephardjhon 5y ago
    Its not just one or a few people that one guy disagrees. Sorry but the openion of a guy with no experience or professional degree in a field is not the same as people with 20+ years of experience and a phd. And the openion of a piedratician is not applicable to an epidimic as someone with years of experience in that field. Least of all, the openion of a politician is completely irrelevant to anything where they cannt back up their claims with expert sources.
0x000000E2 5y ago
Media is just as dishonest as they've been for decades or longer. The problem is not traditional media, and it's two fold. In the US at least, there's a dramatic rise in "captive media", essentially party propaganda packaged as news. I won't name names, but the number one sign is when you see a rotating cast of elites from one party showing up all the time for "interviews" and "exclusives". These media channels are funded and staffed by the same people running said political party. They're essentially one in the same. Plenty of people are fine living inside their party bubble despite more diverse opinions than ever being freely available on the internet. They are convinced that this news source is just as good as any other, and probably even better because they're always saying things that match their opinions. The same thing happens on social media, ML sorts people into their bubbles and hardly anyone leaves. This leads to the second problem (in the US at least). There's a large contingent of the population that feels like they've been left behind. Their culture is dying out, even being replaced. They look at the other side and those people look different, have different religions, different jobs, live in different places, have different cultural beliefs. It's easy to convince these frightened and angry people that the other side is so different they're not even Americans. And party propaganda latches onto all these differences and rips them as wide as possible, which is part of the reason the two sides became so different in the first place. It's easy to sell fear to these people and get them to the polls very effectively. Once you've convinced these people the other side isn't Americans, you can sell them as traitors, enemies, fascists, really whatever you want to placate the scared and left behind masses. Dishonesty of the media only matters if you listen to lying party propaganda outlets. Usually you can tell which outlets are truthful by looking for ones that aren't constantly stoking fear and demonizing people or obviously pandering to one party. Outrage sells to simpletons and manufacturing it is more profitable than finding it in the wild. America is undergoing the same cycle as many western countries. There was a huge population boom post WWII and this group is aging. Their children are a similarly large generation and you're watching an epic cultural power struggle between the old generation that's generally been in power for 40+ years and the first younger generation large enough to outvote them. That's a general simplification but a majority or party positions and voters are sorted along this axis
- shephardjhon 5y ago
  I woulden't say media is still as honest as they always were when it comes to right wing media. Fox News recently had to do multiple retractions but only did so in a miniscule way. The damage the oroginal reports like "Biden will ban beef" were supposed to do already happened, they covered it for hours or days on multiple shows then print a minimal retraction with Larry Kodlow or Tucker Carlson or others not even attempting to apologize. Thats not even mentioning their coverage of the Dr Seuess thing not mentioning the actual book in question and to avoid a retraction, they dont explicitly say Biden banned the books but keep making it appear as of that was the case. A Newsmax host literally had to walk off his show during thr My Pillow guy's rants after being sued by Smartmatic and yet they only had a minimal retraction compared to the lies they got sued for. Tucker Carlson literally had to claim in court that no sane person would take him seriously. Sorry but right wing news has gone completely off the rails from what they used to be. I am fine with them wanting to cover topics from a right wing slant but when they are caught in a lie constantly and barely apologize enough to avoid getting in legal trouble, there is a serious problem.
shephardjhon 5y ago
Throughout your entire 3 paragraph rant you didnt mention one concrete well known example of deliberate misniformation spread by experts. And by deliberate I dont mean something where another point was argued previously with less proof/technology but was changed with more proof. That is not deliberate misinformation.
antris 5y ago
When you've got people in high places of the government who talk about jewish space lasers, turning around and talking about problems with "the media establishment" in general - as if that's the problem is just disingenuous. Not only this top comment (???) on the thread hasn't even defined who or what this "media establishment" is, it doesn't say what they have done. It's easy to hate something so vaguely defined that everyone can project that one experience when they remember some media fumbling a story that one time. Yes, journalists have always made mistakes and always will. There just hasn't been a 24/7 outrage machine, professional "alt-news" grifter industry and conspiracy pipelines on such a scale before that highlights "that one thing" they got wrong and squeezing all the juices out of it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again... People like Steve Crowder know that outrage creates clicks, clicks create money. And if they make a mistake in their "DIY journalism", they already have made 30 videos about the next thing to be outraged about so people have long forgotten.

djoldman 5y ago

> Social and psychological forces are combining to make the sharing and believing of misinformation an endemic problem with no easy solution. There's nothing new about misinformation in the US. We have a long history of trying to influence each other for monetary, political, or other purposes. (See 19th century newspapers completely ignoring news not favorable to their chosen parties and candidates). Maybe it happens faster now with social media. But the effect has been with us before and will be again.

Koshkin 5y ago

“Truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it.“ “No real gentleman will tell the naked truth in the presence of ladies.” - Mark Twain

fallingfrog 5y ago

I think this should be a fundamental assumption, whether you’re left wing or right wing: the enemy is an ordinary person, just like you. You can’t change human nature, all you can address is the various carrots and sticks that influence their behavior. I am a leftist and I definitely do not believe that our social problems are the result of scheming enemies or secret cabals. In my view they are the natural, systemic result of an economic and social system where the more power and money you have, the more I you can get. It forces you to make the most narrow, self interested decisions you can, because otherwise someone else will beat you. And the best way to win that game is make sure someone else pays for all your externalities. If your worldview relies on secret cabals or inherently bad people doing evil things because they’re just evil, that’s a big hint that you’re on the wrong track.